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It is currently Mon Jun 03, 2024 2:14 pm
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HB1240 "Assault Weapon" ban & our classifieds
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Guns4Liberty
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Location: Lynnwood/Bothell Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 Posts: 8590
Real Name: Curtis
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RocketScott wrote: Guns4Liberty wrote: Let's also look at another word in the definition: Quote: from which an assault weapon can be assembled or from which a firearm can be converted into an assault weapon For example, if you are offering an AR-15 bolt carrier group for sale, just ask yourself, " Can this part be used in the assembly of an assault weapon?" And the answer is obviously "yes, it can". That's a solid analysis and I think your logic is sound G4l. But the above quote is the crux You added the word 'used' in your example, as in the part goes into or is added to something else. But I read the 'can be assembled' to mean that all the parts have to be there. The second phrase supports that view because they point out that it's not just the part that makes an assault weapon, the firearm that can be converted also has to be own or controled by the same person I see the angle you're looking at there. What I struggle with is that, logically, one cannot assemble an assault weapon from a single part. So prohibiting exactly that is unlikely to have been the point. And while I recognize that text vs. intent are not always the same, I do think that the ambiguity doesn't necessarily work in our favor, especially in light of the current political climate. For now, I'm sticking with the strict interpretation, until I see something more compelling and/or concrete establishing the contrary.
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Thu Apr 27, 2023 12:40 pm |
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MadPick
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Location: Renton, WA Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 Posts: 52242
Real Name: Steve
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HB1240 says, in part: Quote: [One definition of an assault weapon is a] conversion kit, part, or combination of parts, from which an assault weapon can be assembled or from which a firearm can be converted into an assault weapon if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person Quote: [One definition of an assault weapon is a] semiautomatic, center fire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and has one or more of the following: ... (E) Flash suppressor, flash guard, flash eliminator, flash hider, sound suppressor, silencer, or any item designed to reduce the visual or audio signature of the firearm; Dreadi has posted a couple of examples of Form 4 approvals by the ATF for suppressors in Washington. So, it appears that the ATF doesn't believe that a suppressor is now illegal in Washington, so this is a good data point. As I read the bill, a suppressor is in the same category as a flash hider, a folding stock, a vertical foregrip, and a host of other "evil features" that are mentioned. So if a suppressor is not an assault weapon, then those other parts aren't either.
_________________SteveBenefactor Life Member, National Rifle AssociationLife Member, Second Amendment FoundationPatriot & Life Member, Gun Owners of AmericaLife Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear ArmsLegal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy CoalitionMember, NAGR/NFGRPlease support the organizations that support all of us.Leave it cleaner than you found it.
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Sat Apr 29, 2023 9:18 pm |
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rodell
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Location: Free At last in NC! Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 Posts: 708
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Possible test case for Guns4’s analysis:
Poor Joe has a spare flash hider. Under the wording, that evil device could be applied to another firearm without any existing features, making the rifle an AW. Therefore, on its face, the flash hider is an AW because it is a part “from which an assault weapon can be assembled or from which a firearm can be converted into an assault weapon”.
Theoretically, so is the “other” rifle because it could converted, too. So Poor Joe has two evil AW’s.
Those that are going to comply will quietly do so, others will quietly not and adapt. I don’t think we will see much of this law unless from a vendor or the poor sap who is selling unserialized out of the trunk if the car.
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Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:17 am |
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MadPick
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Location: Renton, WA Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 Posts: 52242
Real Name: Steve
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rodell wrote: Poor Joe has a spare flash hider. Under the wording, that evil device could be applied to another firearm without any existing features, making the rifle an AW. I don't think this example works, because a threaded barrel is an evil feature. So if you have a centerfire, semi-auto rifle with a threaded barrel, it's already an AW -- adding the flash hider won't change that. Maybe that's what makes the suppressor good to go . . . the barrel is already threaded, so adding the suppressor doesn't change anything. Granted, there are ways to attach suppressors and other devices without threading, so I guess in those scenarios the attachment of such devices might turn the gun into an AW.
_________________SteveBenefactor Life Member, National Rifle AssociationLife Member, Second Amendment FoundationPatriot & Life Member, Gun Owners of AmericaLife Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear ArmsLegal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy CoalitionMember, NAGR/NFGRPlease support the organizations that support all of us.Leave it cleaner than you found it.
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Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:24 am |
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scrid2000
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Location: Pierce County Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2018 Posts: 2009
Real Name: Shane
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MadPick wrote: rodell wrote: Poor Joe has a spare flash hider. Under the wording, that evil device could be applied to another firearm without any existing features, making the rifle an AW. I don't think this example works, because a threaded barrel is an evil feature. So if you have a centerfire, semi-auto rifle with a threaded barrel, it's already an AW -- adding the flash hider won't change that. Maybe that's what makes the suppressor good to go . . . the barrel is already threaded, so adding the suppressor doesn't change anything. Granted, there are ways to attach suppressors and other devices without threading, so I guess in those scenarios the attachment of such devices might turn the gun into an AW. Theoretically it is possible to make a firearm that is not an "aSsAuLt WeApOn" that is made salty by adding a suppressor/flash hider to it (ie, a Browning bar with a custom three-lug barrel), but presently no firearm exists that can be made illegal by adding a suppressor.
_________________ Posts not legal advice.
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Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:48 am |
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rodell
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Location: Free At last in NC! Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 Posts: 708
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MadPick wrote: rodell wrote: Poor Joe has a spare flash hider. Under the wording, that evil device could be applied to another firearm without any existing features, making the rifle an AW. I don't think this example works, because a threaded barrel is an evil feature. So if you have a centerfire, semi-auto rifle with a threaded barrel, it's already an AW -- adding the flash hider won't change that. Maybe that's what makes the suppressor good to go . . . the barrel is already threaded, so adding the suppressor doesn't change anything. Granted, there are ways to attach suppressors and other devices without threading, so I guess in those scenarios the attachment of such devices might turn the gun into an AW. You are right, I picked a poor example and I need to think about it some more. As was posted, “intent” matters here and we don’t know for sure.
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Sun Apr 30, 2023 10:44 am |
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CQBgopher
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Location: WA/MT Joined: Thu Sep 6, 2012 Posts: 8312
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It seems their misguided intention of the parts and kits was to prevent people from doing this, *pic borrowed with appreciation from Atlantic Firearms Attachment: ak47-rifle-kit-slovakian-12.jpg and then building their receiver out of a shovel. Problem is they--the dear leadership--are also mostly all lawyers of the nefarious variety so they knew it was a slam dunk to, in the words of one of our less esteemed former staff members, "feign innocence" and bulk ship it all together like a big bucket of Winco trail mix, only to be able to pretend later it was an 'aw shucks' type of over-reach, but since mass shootings are still happening, we're just gonna leave it as-is for now, until we wring the last little bit of leadership out of the current pawns, then move on to phase 12. Soros probably said that, somewhere, or at least something similar to it.
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_________________ "Well, nobody's perfect." ― Osgood Fielding III WTB 250 Savage 250-3000 factory ammo
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Sun Apr 30, 2023 10:45 am |
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TechnoWeenie
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Location: Nova Laboratories Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 Posts: 18556
Real Name: Johnny 5
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#WillNotComply?
_________________NO DISASSEMBLE!Thomas Paine wrote: "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
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Thu May 04, 2023 5:54 pm |
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scrid2000
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Location: Pierce County Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2018 Posts: 2009
Real Name: Shane
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MadPick wrote: ... To address the "parts" question further, after more thought and discussion with ours, here are some of my current conclusions: ... b. One of the other AW definitions is a part "from which a firearm can be converted into an assault weapon." To me, this means that you are taking an entire firearm, and by installing this part, it becomes an AW. I think there are some scenarios that you can run here that get pretty far into the "contrived" category, but realistically I've only come up with a few that make sense: - Threaded barrels for semi-auto pistols that use detachable mags. Install a threaded barrel, and suddenly your Glock 19 is an assault weapon. - A folding or telescoping stock intended for use on a semi-auto centerfire rifle or semi-auto shotgun that normally has a fixed stock.
What about a threaded barrel for a bolt action glock pistol?As to the stock, why would a folding/telescoping stock for a rifle that normally has a fixed stock make it an assault weapon?
_________________ Posts not legal advice.
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Fri May 05, 2023 9:36 pm |
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TechnoWeenie
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Location: Nova Laboratories Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 Posts: 18556
Real Name: Johnny 5
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scrid2000 wrote: MadPick wrote: ... To address the "parts" question further, after more thought and discussion with ours, here are some of my current conclusions: ... b. One of the other AW definitions is a part "from which a firearm can be converted into an assault weapon." To me, this means that you are taking an entire firearm, and by installing this part, it becomes an AW. I think there are some scenarios that you can run here that get pretty far into the "contrived" category, but realistically I've only come up with a few that make sense: - Threaded barrels for semi-auto pistols that use detachable mags. Install a threaded barrel, and suddenly your Glock 19 is an assault weapon. - A folding or telescoping stock intended for use on a semi-auto centerfire rifle or semi-auto shotgun that normally has a fixed stock.
What about a threaded barrel for a bolt action glock pistol?As to the stock, why would a folding/telescoping stock for a rifle that normally has a fixed stock make it an assault weapon? Illegal, intent doesn't matter, it's a part that can be used to 'convert' an assault weapon. Here's the deal, the way the law is worded... EACH part, IS an assault weapon. They tried to copy the BATFE 'a suppressor part is a suppressor' language.. You buy a parts kit, and there's 15 charges for you.....each for 'illegal transfer of an assault weapon'... Quote: (2)(a) "Assault weapon" means:
(..)
(iii) A conversion kit, part, or combination of parts, from which 2 an assault weapon can be assembled or from which a firearm can be 3 converted into an assault weapon if those parts are in the possession 4 or under the control of the same person; There are multiple sections to this, and are read separately, with the OR separating them.... They're highlighted in different colors... So. Can these parts be.... A) 'from which an assault weapon can be assembled' or B)From which a firearm can be converted into an assault weapon if those parts are in the possession or under control of the same person But because an assault weapon 'part' by definition, IS an 'assault weapon', it's a recursive definition.. It uses its own definition to define itself. A takedown pin IS an assault weapon, because it can be used to assemble an assault weapon, and because it's an assault weapon part, it IS an 'assault weapon. Constitutional issues aside, the person who wrote this should be (COC VIOLATION) for their horrible language skills. The threaded bbl 'can be used' to create an assault weapon... therefore it's banned. Even if it's not used to create one.. That's the way the law reads. I tried explaining this before, it's not an additive clause, it's an OR clause... A OR B, not A AND B... Due to the shitty wording, the rule of lenity should apply, and it should, theoretically, be strewn as banning constructive possession, not just parts that might work in an otherwise legal firearm. So, it should only ban 'a combination of parts that could be used to construct an assault weapon, but again, by defining A part, in addition to plural partS, the law would see that part as an assault weapon in of itself. Otherwise, it wouldn't say a singular 'part'... unless they meant it to be constructive possession wording, which they failed at miserably. I'm not an attorney, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Of course, and as mentioned, since an AR15 is, by definition, and assault weapon, ANY AR15 PART is also an assault weapon. I do believe this is why many companies are refusing to ship AR parts, as their attorneys are seeing it the same way I do, that any AR part is a defacto assault weapon. Also, the new law that makes dealers and manufacturers liable if their guns/parts are used in crime.... means they probably don't want the liability anyway.
_________________NO DISASSEMBLE!Thomas Paine wrote: "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
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Fri May 05, 2023 10:04 pm |
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MadPick
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Location: Renton, WA Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 Posts: 52242
Real Name: Steve
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Dang, I didn't consider that. scrid2000 wrote: As to the stock, why would a folding/telescoping stock for a rifle that normally has a fixed stock make it an assault weapon? Not just any rifle, but a semi-auto centerfire rifle. A folding/telescoping stock is one of the "evil features."
_________________SteveBenefactor Life Member, National Rifle AssociationLife Member, Second Amendment FoundationPatriot & Life Member, Gun Owners of AmericaLife Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear ArmsLegal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy CoalitionMember, NAGR/NFGRPlease support the organizations that support all of us.Leave it cleaner than you found it.
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Fri May 05, 2023 10:21 pm |
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TechnoWeenie
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Location: Nova Laboratories Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 Posts: 18556
Real Name: Johnny 5
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I notice they use 'silencer' as a banned pistol item... but I'm not seeing the definition of 'silencer' anywhere in the RCW....
_________________NO DISASSEMBLE!Thomas Paine wrote: "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
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Fri May 05, 2023 10:32 pm |
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scrid2000
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Location: Pierce County Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2018 Posts: 2009
Real Name: Shane
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MadPick wrote: Dang, I didn't consider that. scrid2000 wrote: As to the stock, why would a folding/telescoping stock for a rifle that normally has a fixed stock make it an assault weapon? Not just any rifle, but a semi-auto centerfire rifle. A folding/telescoping stock is one of the "evil features." Glad you enjoyed the pistol article For the rifle, I agree in principle, but as a practical matter I'm not aware of a rifle that isn't an assault weapon that could be made into one by the addition of a folding/telescoping stock. There's a crowdsourced list of legal semiautomatic weapons on Reddit, and AFAIK none of them have an adjustable stock option. Maybe the Ruger PC Carbine? Quote: Ruger PC Carbine 19101 Browning BAR Benelli RI Big Game rifles Winchester SXR, but not the threaded models. CZ VZ 58 with a fixed magazine, with the caveat that I do not know whether the fixed magazine here is sufficiently permanent to qualify because the listing says it block can be swapped out. Marlin Camp Carbine, which has been discontinued since the 1990s. Remington 742, discontinued since the 1980s, and the 750, discontinued in the early 2000s. Remington Model 44 Remington Model 8 and 81, discontinued since the 1930s and 1950s respectively. RSC m1917, FN 1949, and likely other old WWI and WWII rifles that are less common than the Garand or M1 Carbine, but these are fairly rare, old, and valuable milsurp rifles; good luck finding one.
_________________ Posts not legal advice.
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Sat May 06, 2023 6:24 am |
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MadPick
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Location: Renton, WA Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 Posts: 52242
Real Name: Steve
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No argument from me on that … my position is highly theoretical.
_________________SteveBenefactor Life Member, National Rifle AssociationLife Member, Second Amendment FoundationPatriot & Life Member, Gun Owners of AmericaLife Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear ArmsLegal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy CoalitionMember, NAGR/NFGRPlease support the organizations that support all of us.Leave it cleaner than you found it.
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Sat May 06, 2023 6:51 am |
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User 1234
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Location: Pierce County Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 Posts: 1128
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TechnoWeenie wrote: I notice they use 'silencer' as a banned pistol item... but I'm not seeing the definition of 'silencer' anywhere in the RCW.... The presence of a silencer on a semi automatic rifle with a detachable magazine is an evil feature. They omitted that from the pistol category. A threaded barrel capable of accepting a silencer is an evil feature on both semiautomatic centerfire rifles and semiautomatic pistols. (Note that detachable magazine includes almost everything including Garand en block clips).
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Sat May 06, 2023 7:17 am |
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