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It is currently Thu Apr 25, 2024 4:00 am
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Ops
Site Supporter
Location: Piece/Clallam Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 Posts: 10688
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So the folk lore is if you build a 80% lower into a complete firearm you do not need to serialize it. Yet no one can provide anything that agrees to that. -------------------------------------------------------------------- you do not need a license to make it for personal use per the atf . that is true but they do state "You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows" since you made it you have become "the maker". https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-g ... n-overviewjust looking for true facts not internet lore that can be verified and current.
_________________Yaki's - last journeyPromote a Growth Mindset. Don't let a fixed mindset not allow change for the better.
pow·er trip - noun - a self-aggrandizing quest for ever-increasing control over others.
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Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:04 pm |
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MadPick
Site Admin
Location: Renton, WA Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 Posts: 52068
Real Name: Steve
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Did you do a search?
We've had threads on this, with links to ATF letters and other documenting information.
_________________SteveBenefactor Life Member, National Rifle AssociationLife Member, Second Amendment FoundationPatriot & Life Member, Gun Owners of AmericaLife Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear ArmsLegal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy CoalitionMember, NAGR/NFGRPlease support the organizations that support all of us.Leave it cleaner than you found it.
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Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:06 pm |
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Classic
Site Supporter
Location: Federal Way Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 Posts: 5492
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MadPick wrote: Did you do a search?
We've had threads on this, with links to ATF letters and other documenting information. Watching... I did a few searches with no luck but would love to see the link if it exists
_________________ Banned for calling GOD a racist! Oh that's tight, Seattle guns is DEAD!
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Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:30 pm |
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Ops
Site Supporter
Location: Piece/Clallam Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 Posts: 10688
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Classic wrote: Watching... I did a few searches with no luck but would love to see the link if it exists
I know , I did too, and I also searched google
_________________Yaki's - last journeyPromote a Growth Mindset. Don't let a fixed mindset not allow change for the better.
pow·er trip - noun - a self-aggrandizing quest for ever-increasing control over others.
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Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:37 pm |
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PMB
In Memoriam
Joined: Wed Mar 6, 2013 Posts: 12018
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https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/when-do ... al-numbersIf you read the simple answer it looks like Ops is correct, however the reference is to [See 27 CFR § 478.92] (Firearm manufacturers marking requirements). There are several good write-ups around the internet that detail how ATF letters have said that homemade firearms do not require markings.
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Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:39 pm |
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PMB
In Memoriam
Joined: Wed Mar 6, 2013 Posts: 12018
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Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:54 pm |
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Classic
Site Supporter
Location: Federal Way Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 Posts: 5492
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What is ATF doing in regards to people making their own firearms? An individual may generally make a firearm for personal use. However, individuals engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms for sale or distribution must be licensed by ATF. Additionally, there are certain restrictions on the making of firearms subject to the National Firearms Act.
Does an individual need a license to make a firearm for personal use? No, a license is not required to make a firearm solely for personal use. However, a license is required to manufacture firearms for sale or distribution. The law prohibits a person from assembling a non–sporting semiautomatic rifle or shotgun from 10 or more imported parts, as well as firearms that cannot be detected by metal detectors or x–ray machines. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and advance approval by ATF.
I couldn't find anything that said you had to serialize a home made gun...
_________________ Banned for calling GOD a racist! Oh that's tight, Seattle guns is DEAD!
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Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:15 pm |
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PMB
In Memoriam
Joined: Wed Mar 6, 2013 Posts: 12018
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It looks like ATF has changed some of their Q&A to further muddy the waters... Or to be intentionally less clear about homemade firearms. I remember a Q&A that answered this question clearly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_gunNotice in this one ( https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/479.102) that there are hyperlinks to manufacturer and importer, but not for "maker". But those CFRs are not new, and the answer has been addressed directly by ATF several times in the past. Here is a LMGTFY about this topic. I can find plenty of references to people and organizations saying that ATF does not require a S/N on a homemade firearm, but haven't yet found a source directly tied to ATF. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Am+I+required+to+m ... firearm%3F
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Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:41 pm |
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PMB
In Memoriam
Joined: Wed Mar 6, 2013 Posts: 12018
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They are not contradictory. Section 478 applies to COMMERCE in Firearms and section 479 applies to NFA. Therefore, there is no law requiring homemade firearms to have a S/N.
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Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:59 pm |
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Ops
Site Supporter
Location: Piece/Clallam Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 Posts: 10688
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that is the big thing people say you don't need to serialize it yet its all hearsay while the atf clearly states maker.
if you make a 80% into a firearm you have become the maker of a firearm.
I think people are confusing license with serial.
_________________Yaki's - last journeyPromote a Growth Mindset. Don't let a fixed mindset not allow change for the better.
pow·er trip - noun - a self-aggrandizing quest for ever-increasing control over others.
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Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:59 pm |
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PMB
In Memoriam
Joined: Wed Mar 6, 2013 Posts: 12018
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Ops wrote: that is the big thing people say you don't need to serialize it yet its all hearsay while the atf clearly states maker.
if you make a 80% into a firearm you have become the maker of a firearm.
I think people are confusing license with serial. Maker of NFA items only. From your link https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-g ... n-overviewQuote: §479.1 General.
This part contains the procedural and substantive requirements relative to the importation, manufacture, making, exportation, identification and registration of, and the dealing in, machine guns, destructive devices and certain other firearms under the provisions of the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. Chapter 53).
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Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:01 pm |
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Ops
Site Supporter
Location: Piece/Clallam Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 Posts: 10688
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that section is not only about nfa , it falls under "AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS"
which under 27 cfr is pretty much anything other than explosive or machine gun
_________________Yaki's - last journeyPromote a Growth Mindset. Don't let a fixed mindset not allow change for the better.
pow·er trip - noun - a self-aggrandizing quest for ever-increasing control over others.
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Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:35 pm |
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PMB
In Memoriam
Joined: Wed Mar 6, 2013 Posts: 12018
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Ops wrote: that section is not only about nfa , it falls under "AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS"
which under 27 cfr is pretty much anything other than explosive or machine gun The section is NFA only. Quote: Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (e) any other weapon, as defined in this subpart; (f) a machine gun; (g) a muffler or a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within this definition; and (h) a destructive device. The term shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machine gun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Director finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon. For purposes of this definition, the length of the barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breech block when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.
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Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:41 pm |
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Ops
Site Supporter
Location: Piece/Clallam Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 Posts: 10688
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_________________Yaki's - last journeyPromote a Growth Mindset. Don't let a fixed mindset not allow change for the better.
pow·er trip - noun - a self-aggrandizing quest for ever-increasing control over others.
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Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:50 pm |
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PMB
In Memoriam
Joined: Wed Mar 6, 2013 Posts: 12018
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I'm not sure what you are getting at here Ops. Do you really think that we citizens of the USA are required by federal law to serialize homemade firearms that do not fall under NFA? This was your link : https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-g ... n-overview That is directly from ATF. The ATF is not the source of the law, but the CFRs are. So to understand what the ATF is referencing, you have to go to the CFRs. About halfway down the page that you linked to is : Identification of Firearms and directly under that is the CFR being referenced by ATF. That CFR is 27 CFR 478.92 http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c= ... .2.3.6.1.227 CFR 478.92 (Part 478) codifies COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION. Quote: Q: How must licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms, armor piercing ammunition? Clearly, a person who makes a homemade firearm is not a manufacturer or importer of the firearm. I could keep dissecting this, but you're a smart man Ops. The reference to a "maker" of a firearm is in the section that only applies to NFA items. If you want to serialize your homemade firearms I don't think anyone is going to bust you for that. There are several good reasons to mark a homemade firearm uniquely, so no harm done if you do. There is no federal law requiring a homemade firearm to be serialized. California will require homemade firearms to be serialized beginning in July 2018.
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Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:56 pm |
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