Gun store Shooting Locations It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 3:33 pm



Rules WGO Chat Room Gear Rent Me Shield NRA SAF CCKRBA
Calendar


Forum rules


Discussion or advice on how to create an Illegal NFA item will result in an immediate ban. No advice given within should replace user due diligence. Always consult a lawyer / professional.



Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
 WA state revokable living trust template 
Author Message
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Puyallup for now
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011
Posts: 2095
In case anyone was interested I'd be happy to share a copy of the Revokable Trust template I use. Currently at 3 NFA approvals and 4 pendings using the template, so it does work for NFA items. If you're planning to hold other assets along with your NFA stuff on the SAME Trust like a pension, life insurance, retirement stuff, get an attorney as there are other issues at play rather then just meeting the minimum standards for being legally viable for NFA purposes.

In WA you can set up as many trusts as you'd like without any type of registration with the county/state etc. I'm currently at 6 myself, they're free why not? :bigsmile: Just needs an asset listed on the Schedule A , such as $5 cash , undisclosed contents of a safe deposit box, a family heirloom, Fred Meyers rewards card etc. and 2 notarized signatures of the Grantor (creator). The template I use was given to me by another NFA owner and I thought I'd spread the word in light of the posts about paying lawyers to set of Trusts for the sole purpose of holding/building NFA items. Thats money Id rather spend on more NFA stuff personally.

If you plan to do Form1 builds, pick a SHORT name as you'll be engraving it on each NFA item you manufacture. "XYZ Trust ", "NFA Trust #2" etc. "The John Jingleheimer Schmidt Revokable Living Trust For NFA Weapons of Skykomish Washington" is going to look horrible on an SBR receiver.

For anyone who's interested shoot me a PM with your email address and I'll fwd a copy.


Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:13 pm
Profile
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Olympia
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011
Posts: 16044
Real Name: Steve
:plusone: :yes:

_________________
"I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said." - William Buckley, Jr.

"...steam, artillery and revolvers give to civilized man an irresistible power." -Perry Collins


Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:19 pm
Profile
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Maple Valley, WA
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011
Posts: 9234
Real Name: Young
Fair use..

For those interested... please do know that this is not from a lawyer nor back by a lawyer willing to stand by you if things don't work out.

Yes, you can get a computer program trust and it will most likely be approved by ATF... this is not the bar you want to risk all your "assets"


If you are going to go to all the trouble of getting a NFA item (aka suppressor, SBR, etc) please do take a moment and do it right. Not some copy.

Life is full of risk... when you gamble. Sometimes you lose. This is not where I would promote others lose on someone else's risk.

But like I have always said... "it's your ass not mine" :wink05:

_________________
"Shoot Often, Shoot Safely and Share Your Sport!"
Jim Scoutten, Shooting USA


Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:22 pm
Profile
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Puyallup for now
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011
Posts: 2095
oldkim wrote:
Fair use..

For those interested... please do know that this is not from a lawyer nor back by a lawyer willing to stand by you if things don't work out.

Yes, you can get a computer program trust and it will most likely be approved by ATF... this is not the bar you want to risk all your "assets"


If you are going to go to all the trouble of getting a NFA item (aka suppressor, SBR, etc) please do take a moment and do it right. Not some copy.

Life is full of risk... when you gamble. Sometimes you lose. This is not where I would promote others lose on someone else's risk.

But like I have always said... "it's your ass not mine" :wink05:


Other than the cost what exactly is the difference between a lawyer drafted NFA only trust and a free sourced NFA only trust after they've both passed the minimum scrutiny by the ATFs documents examiners to verify they are legal entities under the NFA and have a cancelled stamp in their posession?

ETA: A revokable living trust may be amended, edited or modified at any time if there is an issue later on with the copy sent to the ATF at the time of submission with your form1 or form4.


Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:59 pm
Profile
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Maple Valley, WA
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011
Posts: 9234
Real Name: Young
The ATF is not the benchmark by which you want your "trust" to pass.

They (ATF) will pass a one page trust.
So long as it met their idea of what a trust is... (but please remember they are not lawyers either nor care if the trust is "valid" or not).

They are examiners making sure all your paperwork is done... Not lawyers reading your trust to make sure you are protected.



It's called "insurance"

When I was in my early 20's... single and carefree. Not a care in the world. No assets but my ass and the Army.

Big difference now. I'm quite a bit older with a house, wife, future child and a "few" firearms and a few other toys... I don't want to risk losing any or all my shit because of some piece of paper... that who knows who wrote and who the hell I can go to "fix" it in years to come.

Call it peace of mind. If ever I have an issue with my trust... 1 (one) simple call to my lawyer that wrote my Firearm Trust... not just any trust but a Firearm specific trust... will call upon him to fix it for me.

http://nwgunlawgroup.com/



It's also called short sighted. Yes, it may get you your NFA item now... but a well written Firearm Trust doesn't just deal with your life... but also what happens after... for your loved ones (what they need to do with your NFA item and to protect them).

But you know what they say... you can play in the middle of the street... if no one hits you... all is good. It's just a risk I do not have to think about... now or in the future.

Can you say the same about that piece you used for a "trust" that you downloaded?

_________________
"Shoot Often, Shoot Safely and Share Your Sport!"
Jim Scoutten, Shooting USA


Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:11 pm
Profile
In Memoriam
User avatar
In Memoriam

Location: South King County, WA
Joined: Thu Dec 8, 2011
Posts: 5846
NWRed wrote:
Other than the cost what exactly is the difference between a lawyer drafted NFA only trust and a free sourced NFA only trust after they've both passed the minimum scrutiny by the ATFs documents examiners to verify they are legal entities under the NFA and have a cancelled stamp in their posession? . . .

I have no way to know what differs in WA law (my WAG would be inheritance rules), but some of the Trust-writing attorneys make a point of saying their Trusts are tailored to the requirements of specific states (WA, OR, etc.) - is the one you've used tailored in any way?

_________________
M D "Doc" Nugent
NRA RSO

Synopsis of Rules for Radicals: http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/communism/alinsky.htm
"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds" - Bob Marley
104th Division Image Timberwolves


Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:16 pm
Profile WWW
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Maple Valley, WA
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011
Posts: 9234
Real Name: Young
I am biased when it comes to getting a trust...

A Firearm Trust is something you should invest in (especially for NFA items).

Quote:
Typically, a firearms collection is the product of one spouse’s interest. The other spouse tolerates this interest, but does not care nearly as much about the items that have accumulated. Due to death or disability, the disinterested spouse or other family member may be forced to manage and/or distribute the collection. Because of the vast amount of federal and state regulations pertaining to both NFA and non-NFA weapons, a disinterested spouse may make a mistake as to the applicable laws. A violation of the applicable laws usually results in the commission of a felony.

Because a GunDocx® firearms trust is designed with this scenario in mind, there are detailed instructions to guide a trustee in handling the assets as well as an overview of applicable laws and regulations.

A GunDocx® firearms trust is also designed to allow for multiple users of the items held by the trust. This is in direct contrast to a standard/generic revocable living trust. The GunDocx® trust specifically allows for any named trustee, successor trustee, and any named beneficiary to have the ability to use the trust assets. There is even a provision that will deem any person that you are shooting with a beneficiary of the trust. The trust also allows for the formal appointment of beneficiaries for a limited duration with a set expiration date. An “automatic beneficiary” and a “limited duration beneficiary” have no rights for inheritance unless they are also listed as a “remainder beneficiary.”

A GunDocx® firearms trust also has many standard trust features such as avoiding the probate process for your firearms and the public record that it would create. There is also the ability to create and update a tangible personal property memorandum which grants different people specific items of a collection.

http://nwgunlawgroup.com/






But again. One that is considering using a format trust like the one by the OP... You just need to know...
BE Informed to make a decision for yourself. Since it's your ASSets on the line... not mine. :wink05:

_________________
"Shoot Often, Shoot Safely and Share Your Sport!"
Jim Scoutten, Shooting USA


Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:23 pm
Profile
In Memoriam
User avatar
In Memoriam

Location: South King County, WA
Joined: Thu Dec 8, 2011
Posts: 5846
In doing my own research, I found this thread helpful, especially these posts:
- post 60 (sample revokable living trust)
https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/revocable-living-trust.18970/page-3
- posts 63, 64, and 67 (comments by dbrislawn)
https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/revocable-living-trust.18970/page-4
:wavey:

Hmmmm. dbrislawn . . . sounds familiar.

_________________
M D "Doc" Nugent
NRA RSO

Synopsis of Rules for Radicals: http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/communism/alinsky.htm
"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds" - Bob Marley
104th Division Image Timberwolves


Last edited by DocNugent on Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:27 pm
Profile WWW
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Maple Valley, WA
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011
Posts: 9234
Real Name: Young
Please note...

NW Gun Law Group (links I have supplied in my responses).

Dennis Brislawn and Keith Wells
http://nwgunlawgroup.com/about/dennis-brislawn/
http://nwgunlawgroup.com/about/keith-wells/

_________________
"Shoot Often, Shoot Safely and Share Your Sport!"
Jim Scoutten, Shooting USA


Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:34 pm
Profile
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Puyallup for now
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011
Posts: 2095
People selling things tend to focus on the reasons why you should spend your money with them. Attorneys are no different.
If you think the money spent on an attorney editing a fill in the blanks computer trust program with your information is worthwhile, thats your decision.

For me, I have no issue with meeting the minimum legal requirements to form a valid legal Trust and acquiring 1 NFA item with it. If and when there's an issue with it, there's only 1 item at stake.

From what I read of Brislawns posts on NWF his Trusts are crafted with assumption the Trustees and Benficiaries are morons and will be violating federal law without his guidance. Which is why he apparently includes the applicable laws regarding firearms in the trust.

Do you really think the ATF is approving NFA items for invalid legal entities, Trusts/LLCs/LLPs/Corps, and then going back later and attempting to revoke a tax paid stamp? They'll deny a stamp to a non-valid entity, to do any less would be a violation of federal law, same as approving a Form for someone who failed to acquire a CLEO signature or didnt send in their fingerprint card with the Form. Not going to happen. Ask the people who had their invalid Trusts that DSG was offering with suppressor purchases, kicked back due to the trust formation paperwork being incomplete and not notarized as required by the trust documents.

A 1 page trust would require the declaration, certification, and schedule A. If that meets the minimum legal standards, then what does it matter if it's only 1 page? They dont have to be complicated, form a Corporation if you want it to be complicated.

Oldkim, how many pages is your Trust? Do you have other assets listed in the schedule A besides NFA items? Do you have a tornado rider on your home owners policy?


Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:10 pm
Profile
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Airway heights
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011
Posts: 12246
Real Name: Michael
NWRed wrote:
Do you have a tornado rider on your home owners policy?




:ROFLMAO: WTF is that?

_________________
ANZAC wrote:
That one that says "From my cold dead hands..... will require a background check"


He who does not punish evil commands it to be done. --- Leonardo DaVinci

When its time to go in:
That place of steel and stone. I pray that you will keep me safe, so I will not walk alone. Help me to do my duty, please watch me on my rounds.
Amongst those perilous places and slamming steel door sounds. God, keep my fellow Officers well and free from harm. Let them know I'll be there too, whenever there's alarm.
Above all when I walk my beat, no matter where I roam. Let me go back whence I came, to family and home

Author unknown.


Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:21 am
Profile
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Lynnwood/Bothell
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014
Posts: 8552
Real Name: Curtis
oldkim wrote:
The ATF is not the benchmark by which you want your "trust" to pass.

They (ATF) will pass a one page trust.
So long as it met their idea of what a trust is... (but please remember they are not lawyers either nor care if the trust is "valid" or not).

They are examiners making sure all your paperwork is done... Not lawyers

^This. They aren't checking for validity, they are checking for completeness. You should be more concerned about the former, because that is what you hang your hat on with an NFA trust.


Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:59 am
Profile
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Lakewood, WA
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012
Posts: 4056
Real Name: brad aka bubba
I guess the question needs to be asked..

would you put your home trust up against the federal governments lawyers if needed? Or would you rather have a attorney that will back up his trust to do that for you?

_________________
ALL MY FIREARMS WILL ONLY BE TRANSFERRED THROUGH I-5 Guns And Ammo (Lacey WA)


Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:35 am
Profile
Online
Site Admin
User avatar
Site Admin

Location: Olympia, WA
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011
Posts: 38292
Real Name: Dan
spikedzombies wrote:
I guess the question needs to be asked..

would you put your home trust up against the federal governments lawyers if needed? Or would you rather have a attorney that will back up his trust to do that for you?


I'm sorry... I couldn't hear you over the ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ playing in my head...


Wed Dec 24, 2014 7:30 am
Profile WWW
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Lakewood, WA
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012
Posts: 4056
Real Name: brad aka bubba
Massivedesign wrote:
spikedzombies wrote:
I guess the question needs to be asked..

would you put your home trust up against the federal governments lawyers if needed? Or would you rather have a attorney that will back up his trust to do that for you?


I'm sorry... I couldn't hear you over the ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ playing in my head...


When it comes to NFA why fuck around? :patriot:

_________________
ALL MY FIREARMS WILL ONLY BE TRANSFERRED THROUGH I-5 Guns And Ammo (Lacey WA)


Wed Dec 24, 2014 7:47 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 36 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 36 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum



Rules WGO Chat Room Gear Rent Me NRA SAF CCKRBA
Calendar


Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software for PTF.
[ Time : 1.495s | 18 Queries | GZIP : Off ]