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Discussion or advice on how to create an Illegal NFA item will result in an immediate ban. No advice given within should replace user due diligence. Always consult a lawyer / professional.



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 AR-15 Pistol Vertical Foregrip 
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UpDog wrote:
Guns4Liberty wrote:
Title I "firearms" (something that isn't a rifle, pistol, or AOW under federal law) are pistols under WA state law, so carrying one concealed in this state is perfectly legal, provided you comply with the rest of the RCWs pertaining to lawful concealed carry. I'm not aware of any federal prohibition of concealed carry of Title I firearms, so unless someone can show me where in the U.S. code it is restricted or prohibited, I believe it is perfectly legal at the federal level as well.


What are you talking about?

If you are talking about state law, please do not mix terms.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.010

Quote:
(9) "Firearm" means a weapon or device from which a projectile or projectiles may be fired by an explosive such as gunpowder.

The type of gun in question (AR pistol with vertical foregrip) fits the RCW definition of "pistol", so there's no question it is legal to carry concealed in WA under state law, regardless of whether it is an AOW (OAL<26") or a Title I Firearm (OAL>26") under federal law. So the question then becomes about federal law as it pertains to concealed carry of such a firearm, in which case the OAL comes into play to determine the proper classification.

kf7mjf posted a link to an ATF letter that appears to address that, but it confuses me because, if I understand ATF correctly, carrying a Title I Firearm concealed makes it an AOW. But a firearm's legal classification should not change based upon the manner in which it is carried; that is illogical. I still need to see where in the U.S. Code (codified law, not a letter) such a prohibition exists before I take that part of the ATF letter seriously.


Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:41 pm
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(e) Any other weapon
The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5845

The letter already cited this and stated the difference is once it's concealed on the person it becomes an AOW and thus under the purview of the NFA. No concealment, no NFA.

It can't be a handgun because it's over 26" and has a VFG, and it's not an AOW because it's not concealed. But concealing it makes it an AOW because you've demonstrated it is capable of being concealed on the person, and thus an NFA item because of it's configuration.

Now I need a drink. That gave me a headache to type.

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Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:52 pm
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The original question includes use of a vertical grip and by definition it not longer is defined as a pistol and last time I checked I have a concealed pistol license. I think we can all agree the terminology or definitions between federal and state are fubar.

Quote:
RCW 9.41.010 (18) "Pistol" means any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.


Quote:
RCW 9.41.050 (1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol. Exception: RCW 9.41.060 (9) Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper

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Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:13 pm
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kf7mjf wrote:
The letter already cited this and stated the difference is once it's concealed on the person it becomes an AOW and thus under the purview of the NFA. No concealment, no NFA.

I know what ATF says in the letter; I'm trying to affirm or deny their claim by looking to codified law.

The AOW definition from 26 US Code 5845 that you provided makes absolutely no reference to the magical OAL of 26". So why, then, does ATF say in the letter that "a firearm of this type is classified an AOW if it's overall length is less than 26", or if it is actually concealed on the person."

The concealment part is actually mentioned in the law; the OAL part is not. So where did ATF come up with the OAL distinction between AOW and Title I Firearm? Where in the U.S. Code can I find the 26" OAL explanation?


Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:20 pm
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