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 WA bill 1588 - require background checks for all gun sales. 
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I still wonder why they think this will do any good.

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Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:19 pm
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kf7mjf wrote:
I still wonder why they think this will do any good.

Hasn't stopped crime in Cali

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Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:34 pm
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Just got back from the hearing. http://www.tvw.org/index.php?option=com ... 2013020111

Due to the popularity of 1588 I was shut out of sharing my testimony to the committee, although I did submit it in written form. Much to many of our surprise this morning a substitute bill (PSHB 1588) http://app.leg.wa.gov/m/cmd/Handler.ash ... &att=false

was put forth that we did not get a chance to read ahead of time. In essence the substitute bill give's CPL's holders a "loop-hole" in selling their firearms privately. The PSHB 1588 also removes any paperwork (i.e. registration/data base) requirements to be saved. This is an interesting development, but still does not warrant support of a bill that is supposed to provide "so-called" "universal" felonious background checks.

"(2)(a) No unlicensed person may sell a firearm to another unlicensed person unless (ii) the purchaser produces a valid concealed pistol license issued under RCW 9.41.070."

Rep. Hope (R-44) https://www.facebook.com/MikeHopeWA?fref=ts (Seattle PD) continued to make false statements that 40% of felons get their guns from private sales. He cites this report (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf ) as his citation. Note that the report shows felons get 39.6 of their firearms through "friends or family", which is technically a 'private' transaction. But Rep. Hope is intellectually dishonest (i.e. Liar, Liar pants on fire) if he thinks for one second that a felon like Maurice Clemmons would of undergone a background check when he got his guns from his friends and family. Or he is an outright liar if he believes that Ja'Mari Alexander Jones (Tuba Man killer, Bellevue night club shooter) would of undergone a background check when he got his gun for the Bellevue shooting from friends and associates. Shall I go one about where felons really get their firearms from? Certainly not from private sales. Every manner in which felons get their firearms from is ALREADY illegal.

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Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:02 pm
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gogodawgs wrote:

Rep. Hope (R-44) https://www.facebook.com/MikeHopeWA?fref=ts (Seattle PD) continued to make false statements that 40% of felons get their guns from private sales. He cites this report (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf ) as his citation. Note that the report shows felons get 39.6 of their firearms through "friends or family", which is technically a 'private' transaction. But Rep. Hope is intellectually dishonest (i.e. Liar, Liar pants on fire) if he thinks for one second that a felon like Maurice Clemmons would of undergone a background check when he got his guns from his friends and family. Or he is an outright liar if he believes that Ja'Mari Alexander Jones (Tuba Man killer, Bellevue night club shooter) would of undergone a background check when he got his gun for the Bellevue shooting from friends and associates. Shall I go one about where felons really get their firearms from? Certainly not from private sales. Every manner in which felons get their firearms from is ALREADY illegal.



Well since it's already illegal for a felon to even POSSESS a firearm, I think that goes without saying. Enforce the rules in place.....I could get on board with penalties for those who KNOWINGLY sell/give/loan to a felon, but even that would have to be written carefully. I think intent would need to be proven for me to agree. I.E. it wasn't just stolen, I actually gave it to someone who I KNEW could not legally obtain them.

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Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:07 pm
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They are pushing bill 1588 through committee today. http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?bill=1588&year=2013 I printed out the original version of the bill last night then took a half day off of work to drive to Olympia to speak at the Judiciary Committee hearing. There was little interest in the first two bills pertaining to amending penalties for gun crime, most people showed for the background check bill.

Bill 1588 requires that a private sale take place only after obtaining an application from the Department of Licensing and obtaining a background check from a local dealer, sheriff or chief of police at a cost of $20 or less. The problem is that a dealer is not going to do this for $20 if at all and as far as I know they can't request a NICS for a private sale so they would have to take possession of the firearm to make the sale.

The local police are not allowed to access NICS for a private sale. I even called the Mason County Sheriff's office to ask; I was referred to the highway patrol, but this does not work for the bill either.

So the original bill doesn't work at all. When I was sitting in O'Brien Building Hearing Room A, I saw the Bill 1588 summary. It did not resemble the original bill much. CPL holder’s were exempt and in place of the application that had not been created yet, form 4473 was to be used. It turns out that the bill was amended and not yet published, even the copies of the bill next to the sign in sheets in the hallway were out of date.

I was the last person called up to speak. By this time the committee had already been informed about how their scheme was not going to work legally unless it was intended to simply ban private gun sales. All I had left to say was that I was disappointed that we were not permitted to view the amended bill prior to the hearing and that my local sheriff was not going to be performing any background checks for private sales.

The morning was not a total bust. I was able to speak to a WASPC representative about the SBR bill and give him my card. I still have to track him down and talk him into supporting the bill.

There was a moment of comedy too. After one man finished speaking of his support for the bill and how it would keep guns out of the hands of criminals, a committee member asked him if he thought criminals would comply with the law; he said yes. There was general giggling throughout the hearing room. I palmed my face at that one so I couldn't see if the committee was giggling too. I will have to check the archives on TVW later today.

So even if anyone wants gun control, it seems Olympia is not competent enough to provide it.

Ranb


Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:31 pm
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Kgbsucka wrote:
Enforce the rules in place.....I could get on board with penalties for those who KNOWINGLY sell/give/loan to a felon, but even that would have to be written carefully. I think intent would need to be proven for me to agree. I.E. it wasn't just stolen, I actually gave it to someone who I KNEW could not legally obtain them.



The big issue with this is that a regular citizen, not a licensed FFL or Law Enforcement Officer, has no way to verify that the person that wants to buy your firearm isn't a prohibited person. Possession of a CPL is a step forward but then again, how do you really know that person has behaved since it was issued? Same argument with stolen. How can an ordinary citizen check. All record checks are locked up unless you are a LEO or FFL. Looks like they want to keep it that way and make everyone pay a fee for these checks. Why not just open up an Online Service and make the fee less than $10? No waiting in line at the Police Station or FFL. Get the printed "YES" or "NO".

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Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:24 pm
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Here is the substitute bill:
http://app.leg.wa.gov/m/cmd/Handler.ash ... &att=false


Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:43 pm
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Ranb wrote:
The morning was not a total bust. I was able to speak to a WASPC representative about the SBR bill and give him my card. I still have to track him down and talk him into supporting the bill.

There was a moment of comedy too. After one man finished speaking of his support for the bill and how it would keep guns out of the hands of criminals, a committee member asked him if he thought criminals would comply with the law; he said yes. There was general giggling throughout the hearing room. I palmed my face at that one so I couldn't see if the committee was giggling too. I will have to check the archives on TVW later today.

So even if anyone wants gun control, it seems Olympia is not competent enough to provide it.

Ranb


Thanks for being there.

Note the Curio and Relic exemption, they exempted BOTH the GUNS and C&R FFLs. Idiots. Of course I won't correct them on that.


Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:53 pm
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gogodawgs wrote:

Rep. Hope (R-44) https://www.facebook.com/MikeHopeWA?fref=ts (Seattle PD) continued to make false statements that 40% of felons get their guns from private sales. He cites this report (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf ) as his citation. Note that the report shows felons get 39.6 of their firearms through "friends or family", which is technically a 'private' transaction. But Rep. Hope is intellectually dishonest (i.e. Liar, Liar pants on fire) if he thinks for one second that a felon like Maurice Clemmons would of undergone a background check when he got his guns from his friends and family. Or he is an outright liar if he believes that Ja'Mari Alexander Jones (Tuba Man killer, Bellevue night club shooter) would of undergone a background check when he got his gun for the Bellevue shooting from friends and associates. Shall I go one about where felons really get their firearms from? Certainly not from private sales. Every manner in which felons get their firearms from is ALREADY illegal.

Thanks for the update and the effort.

I will do everything in my power, financially and with my time, to prevent Mike Hope from getting re-elected. He obviously does not support the NRA nor his constituents. He's a big fat liar on most issues as mentioned.


Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:44 am
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I got an idea. Me me me. How about we start stamping felons for heads the well know that they can't own. Make them register where thy live like sex offenders and leave the law abiding citizens alone.

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Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:45 am
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Heard Workman on Carlson's show again this morning.

John calling in from Marysville made some very good points. No one believes the records will be destroyed.

Mike Hope invited to the show again to speak about his support. No show. Hiding under his desk I suppose.


Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:01 am
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I spoke at the judiciary hearing 0n 1588 and felt like a complete idiot as my prepared statement was longer than the 2 minutes that were allowed so I tried to edit on the fly and must have sounded like Bevis and Butthead.
I will sure as hell do a one page statement next time, if there is a next time.
Here is what I wanted to say if anyone is interested:
My name is Anton D Rehling I am a resident of Olympia Washington, Thurston County.

I would like to thank the committee and the citizens of Washington State for the opportunity to speak on the proposed House Bill 1588 and other anti-gun legislation that will damage the liberty and rights of citizenry of the State of Washington.

The preamble to the Washington State Constitution states:
We, the people of the state of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our Liberties, do ordain this constitution.

In other words, our rights are granted by the supreme ruler of the universe and not legislators.

Our constitution does not limit our rights and liberty it protects them.

Article 1 of the WA State Constitution
Declaration of rights
Section 1. Political power
All political power is inherent in the people, and governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed, and are established to protect and maintain individual rights.
One of the rights that protect all others rights is;

Article 1 Section 24. of our state constitution Right to bear arms
The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or state, shall not be impaired,
The definition of Impaired is weakened, diminished, or damaged.
It is your obligation, your duty to protect that right and not impair its function for us now and for our posterity.
Article 1 section 24 of our State Constitution is a companion to the Constitution of the United States and the 2nd Amendment. “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, ….. the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
Our right to bear arms was not protected to allow for hunting and sporting purposes, they are to protect our right from tyrannical government, plain and simple, to ignore that is a violation of what your job is as described in article 1 section 1 of our state constitution to protect and defend individual rights. Defense from criminal attack is just an added benefit.
HB1588 will in fact be a violation of our state and national constitutionally protected rights. These rights are not granted by government, the preamble to our state constitution says; We, the people of the state of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our Liberties. It does not say grateful to our legislature for our liberties. We elected you to protect our individual rights not regulate us like children who need to be looked after. We need to be free from the regulation of special interest anti-gun lobbies that want to blame guns for crime. A gun causes murder the same way forks and spoons cause obesity or blaming pencils for misspelled words.
Our legislature needs to remember what your role was intended to be, it is not what it has been slowly evolved to, It was intended for you to represent our interest and for the preservation of individual rights.
We are a free people that follow the rule of law, not the rule or the whims of legislators that think it falls upon them to regulate us into servitude, we elected you to defend out rights and liberty not to punish us through freedom reducing legislation because of the crimes of a few people.
The ones that need to be punished are the criminals that have committed the crimes not the law abiding.
This type of legislation sends a message that you now think we are your subjects that need your guidance to protect ourselves and our children.

HB 1588 will criminalize private firearms transfers between Grandfather and granddaughter or grandson, between Father-in-law and son-in law, between husband and wife, between father and son or daughter between two law abiding gun owners that have been friends for years, between two concealed pistol License holders.

HB 1588 will seriously impair our rights under article 1 section 24 of our state constitution as well as article 1 section 1 which requires the legislature to maintain and protect our individual rights.
To restrict our Constitutional rights for fire arm ownership by criminalizing firearm transfers between family and friends does not take guns out of the hands of the criminal’s intent on committing criminal acts against the citizens of the State of Washington, it will create a new criminal class from the roles of the law abiding, is that your intent?

Guns are not the problem, criminals are the problem, restricting our right to bear arms that has been protected through our State and Federal constitutions cannot be tolerated by a free citizenry. There are thousands of laws against criminal activity we do not need more, murder using any means is a crime already.
When a criminal is at the door and seconds count, law enforcement is minutes away. Without what is protected in Article 1 section 24 of our constitution, the right to bear arms, law enforcement will do what they do best, investigate crime and clean up the mess of violent crime perpetrated against us.
Mass shootings do not happen by sane law abiding citizens and they do not happen to an armed citizen. They happen in gun free zones to disarmed citizens. Addressing criminal activity by restricting the law abiding by increasing the difficulty in obtaining defensive weapons will not reduce the availability of guns to the criminal and it will not reduce violent crime. This type of legislation is but a stepping stone for disarmament which will enable the evil to advance their agenda with impunity.
Expanding back ground checks will not take guns out of the hands of criminals it will only take defensive weapons out of the hands of the law abiding by making the acquiring of defensive fire arms a regulation quagmire for the law abiding.
We already have back ground checks and have for years; they have done nothing to take weapons out of the hands of criminals. History has shown that these laws have actually had the opposite effect. If you live in Chicago, NY City or Washington DC where they have almost total gun bans through regulated restrictions those cities have the nation’s highest homicides rates committed by criminals with guns against an unarmed law abiding population.

You, our legislators are protected by a very well-armed State Police here at the capitol, it would be folly for anyone to come here and try violent crime as they would leave in a body bag, we deserve, our children deserve, the only armed defense available to us and them, which is ourselves.

The State Police, the City Police and Sherriff Deputies have no legal obligation to defend and protected the citizens and cannot be held libel as case law has shown for the failure to do so.

The citizenry must look to themselves for that protection.

Notably, the Supreme Court STATED about the responsibility of police for the security of your family and loved ones is "You, and only you, are responsible for your security and the security of your family and loved ones.
"It is well-settled fact of American law that the police have no legal duty to protect any individual citizen from crime, even if the citizen has received death threats and the police have negligently failed to provide protection."
In closing I want to appeal to you for sanity on the subject of impairment of our right under article 1 section 24 of our state constitution; The Right to bear arms
In addition;
Where should our outrage be, 11,078 homicides by firearms deaths per year from guns for all ages (this does not count suicide by gun) or 1.4 million deaths of children per year from abortion?
I remember when Roe vs Wade was passed in 1973, abortion was to be for the life of the mother, rape or incest not because of a night of drunken sex or because of convenience.

Seeing where Roe vs Wade has taken us over the last 40 years I can predict with certainty where this self-defensive weapons infringement will ultimately take us in the coming years.

You may not be the tyrannical despots that will subjugate the population today but you are taking us down a very slippery slope that may end there. I urge you to reverse your travel down this slippery slope that history has shown to be part of the evolution of despotism as there is always some that think exceeding their governmental limits is OK and taking un-granted power by we the people is somehow their right.

Please fulfill your obligations to the citizens of Washington State and vote no on HB1588
Thank you


Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:07 am
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Massivedesign wrote:


I saw the hearings on TVW for HB1588 that the substitute bill was not available for review and comment prior to the hearing, other than being posted at the hearing. Dirty tricks. In any event, thanks to all who showed up. There were many great points made.

Two in particular highlighted by some:

Quote:
(2)(a) No unlicensed person may sell a firearm to another unlicensed person unless: (i) The purchaser has undergone a background check in accordance with the provisions of this subsection (2) and the background check indicates that the purchaser is eligible to possess a firearm under state and federal law; or (ii) the purchaser produces a valid concealed pistol license issued under RCW 9.41.070.


That is some relief for the people with CPLs, but it does not correct the utter unworkability of the proposed law (looking at $20 checks that most FFL's will not perform, the fact that LE legally cannot run background checks for private citizens or without a LE purpose, the process of the state invoking the federally regulated check process which requires the FFL to enter the firearm in the A&D log and related federally mandated records retention requirement (I believe this is the de facto registration that the NRA lobbyist spoke to), etc.) and the net effect on private purchases in general and gun shows in particular (read destruction).

Quote:
(2)(b)(ii) The purchaser must complete and sign a firearms transaction record (ATF form 4473), which must be provided to the dealer or the chief of police or sheriff conducting the background check.

(2)(b)(v) The dealer or chief of police or sheriff conducting the background check may not retain a copy of the firearms transaction record (ATF form 4473), which shall be returned to the seller after the completion of the background check. The seller may retain a copy of the firearms transaction record (ATF form 4473) as proof of compliance with the requirements of this section.


For reference (ATF Federal Firearms Licensee Quick Reference and Best Practices Guide):
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-15.pdf

Quote:
Required Acquisition Information

For each firearm you acquire, you must completely and accurately record all of the following information in your A&D record:
The date of receipt of the firearm;
The name and address of the non-licensee or the name and FFL license number of the licensee from whom you received the firearm;
The name of the manufacturer and importer (if any) of the firearm;
The model of the firearm;
The serial number of the firearm;
The type of firearm (pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, receiver, frame, etc); and
The caliber or gauge of the firearm.

Required Disposition Information

For each firearm you sell or otherwise dispose of, you must completely and accurately record the following information in your bound book:
The date of sale or other disposition of the firearm;
The name and address of the non-licensee or the name and FFL license number of the licensee to whom the firearm was transferred.
Alternatively, if you file your Forms 4473 in numerical order, you may record your internal Form 4473 number in the A&D record in lieu of recording the name and address of the non-licensee to whom you sold or transferred the firearm.


p.8

It appears that this is the de facto registration that the NRA lobbyist was describing. The net effect is that, assuming that even though the FFL must not retain a copy of the Forms 4473 under HB 1588 (which is unclear whether this is inconsistent with FFL regulations), they appear to be required by ATF to record these acquisitions and dispositions in their A&D book (correct me if this is wrong), the A&D retention and inspection requirements are the de facto registration of private sales. Granted, this is no more registration than a normal retail purchase, but there it is.

I think the price of off-record firearms will see a premium as a result of this. All the while, felons and other prohibited purchasers intent on mayhem will ignore this law, just as they ignore all the others, and will still get access.

Watching these hearings, I was extremely put off by the fact that these legislators didn't even know what current law is, what practical effects this will have, the fact that stakeholders are given such limited time to voice their concerns while valuable time is taken by the appeal to emotion idiots that also are ignorant of current law and practice, and the fact that so many "facts" and "statistics" are entered into public record unchallenged.


Hey ADR and others, you did fine. Fortunately, you are able to submit written remarks as well as appear and speak. (If anyone knows any online facility for this, please link.) You can also ask that your materials be submitted into the public record.


Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:16 am
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Washington: Your State Legislators MUST Hear from You TODAY




Pressure is building in Olympia to pass House Bill 1588, which is a bill that could criminalize private transfers of firearms and lead to handgun registration. It is absolutely imperative for your state legislators to hear from you TODAY.

Yesterday, House Bill 1588 was heard by the House Judiciary Committee. Sponsored by state Representatives Jamie Pederson (D-43), Mike Hope (R-44) and thirty-six other state representatives, HB 1588 could criminalizeall private sales of firearms. This bill mandates a $20 fee (tax) to conduct a background check. All private firearm sales would be required to be brokered by licensed gun dealers and it is unlikely that $20 would cover their cost. A likely outcome is dealers refusing to process these transactions, potentially bringing all legal private firearm sales to a halt.

HB 1588 is unworkable in its current form, as it conflicts with federal law. Furthermore, if it was able to be implemented as drafted, it would create a database of all privately sold handguns since ALL dealer handgun deliveries are registered with the state.

This bill is nothing more than a regulatory scheme that would create a huge burden for law-abiding citizens, would be unenforceable and would be ignored by criminals anyway. It is truly nothing more than a precursor to Universal Firearm REGISTRATION! For more information on this misguided measure, please see our previous report.

HB 1588 is scheduled for vote in the House Judiciary Committee on Tuesday, February 19 at 10:00 a.m. The contact information for committee members is provided below.

Also heard yesterday was House Bill 1676, sponsored by state Representative Ruth Kagi (D-32) and thirteen other state representatives. This so-called “child access prevention” bill would single out the storage of firearms for criminalization under certain circumstances. Today, fatal firearms accidents are at an all-time low and are at the bottom of the list of causes of accidental harm to children.

Washington’s current reckless endangerment statute already provides a remedy to address the rare incident of negligent storage and, more significantly, there is a civil remedy available that provides for civil action by the parents of a minor child who is injured or killed.

Please contact your state Representatives and state Senator TODAY and urge them to oppose HB 1588 and HB 1676 and all other attacks on your Second Amendment Rights! To find your elected officials and their contact information, please click here. You may also contact your state Senator and Representatives by calling the toll-free legislative hotline at 1-800-562-6000.

The latest attack on law-abiding gun owners comes in the form of a ban on so-called “assault weapons” and magazines that hold more than ten rounds. Senate Bill 5737, just introduced by state Senators Ed Murray (D-43) and Jeanne Kohl-Welles (D-36), would ban the sale of commonly owned semi-automatic firearms. This bill would ban the manufacture, transfer, possession, purchase and sale of firearms arbitrarily defined as “assault weapons”, semi-automatic firearms commonly owned by law-abiding citizens for self-defense, based on mainly cosmetic features!

SB 5737 would also ban the possession of any semiautomatic firearm along with a magazine that holds more than ten rounds. A violation of these, and other provisions listed in the bill, is a class C felony. Owners of these firearms could keep them IF they subjected themselves to annual in-home inspections by law enforcement and complied with stringent and impractical storage and transportation requirements.

Your NRA-ILA will continue to keep you informed on these and other important bills. Thank you for continuing to contact your state lawmakers - they must hear from you now!

House Judiciary Committee:

Representative Jamie Pedersen (D-43), Chairman

(360) 786-7826

jamie.pedersen@leg.wa.gov



Representative Drew Hansen (D-23), Vice Chairman

(360) 786-7842

drew.hansen@leg.wa.gov



Representative Jay Rodne (R-5)

(360) 786-7852

jay.rodne@leg.wa.gov



Representative Steve O'Ban (R-28)

(360) 786-7890

steve.oban@leg.wa.gov



Representative Roger Goodman (D-45)

(360) 786-7878

roger.goodman@leg.wa.gov



Representative Mike Hope (R-44)

(360) 786-7892

mike.hope@leg.wa.gov



Representative Laurie Jinkins (D-27)

(360) 786-7930

laurie.jinkins@leg.wa.gov



Representative Steve Kirby (D-29)

(360) 786-7996

steve.kirby@leg.wa.gov



Representative Brad Klippert (R-8)

(360) 786-7882

brad.klippert@leg.wa.gov



Representative Terry Nealey (R-16)

(360) 786-7828

terry.nealey@leg.wa.gov



Representative Tina Orwall (D-33)

(360) 786-7834

tina.orwall@leg.wa.gov



Representative Mary Helen Roberts (D-21)

(360) 786-7950

maryhelen.roberts@leg.wa.gov



Representative Matt Shea (R-4)

(360) 786-7984

matt.shea@leg.wa.gov


Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:26 pm
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John Carlson(570 KVI) will have the author of HB1588, Jamie Pederson (D-43) on the air in a few minutes.

Streaming live here-
http://www.kvi.com/

PS: Mike Hope(R-44) AWOL again.
:diggin:


Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:56 am
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