I own a H&R Handy Gun (SBS/C&R) that I inherited from my grandfather (with tax stamp). He acquired it from someone in the 60's who was the original purchaser (with tax stamp) and also went through the process to legally transfer it into his name with the ATF. I went through the process of going through the Tax Exempt Transfer and Registration with the ATF (including finger prints, sign-off with the local sheriff, etc.) and as of 3/27/08 have the signed-off form from the ATF that gives me legal ownership. So, this is a legally owned SBS/C&R with all documentation in hand to prove it.

At the time, I was told by the ATF agent handling the transfer that I could carry and use it as I would any other firearm. As an aside, they require notification if I'm going to take it across state lines... Anyway, I have two questions:

First, under the new laws of Washington State regarding Short Barreled Shotguns, is it still legal for me to own this gun? It's not like I'm going to be turning it over to the state, but curious as to the legality according to the letter of the law...

Second, I carry this frequently with me in the field (with accompanying paper work) while hunting as a side arm (for grouse etc.). Is it still legal for me to carry and use this in the field (not as a pistol for large game, but as a pistol for grouse or personal protection)?

Thanks so much for your input!

As long as it was in the state before they banned possession of SBS' you are fine.

Yes, it's been in the state since the 60's. I am a life-long resident and recieved the legal transfer in 2008.

Concealed or not?

Not concealed, go to town.

Concealed, either you need a CPL or be participating in an activity such as



http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.060

I would be careful on the concealed during any activity part. Your CPL is just that... a license to carry a concealed pistol. This is registered as a shotgun. There may be some legalese to clear up there if stopped while concealing a shotgun. It's an odd situation since Judge style pistols are shotguns, but they are technically classified and registered as a pistol- you say your weapon is clearly defined as a shotgun. I'd play on the side of caution since this may result in being cited and sorting it in court after the fact.

Why? Is there a law against concealing anything other than a pistol in terms of firearms?

Right, there is no state law about concealing rifles or shotguns.

But note that they cannot be loaded while in a vehicle (unlike a pistol if you have a CPL).

(edit) personally I'd err on the side of caution and get a CPL to cover you when not involved in any exempt activity.

Definition of "pistol" under state law:
"(18) "Pistol" means any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand."

How it is registered with the NFA means nothing under state law.

I do have a CPL. Carrying the handy gun concealed isn't very practical as the barrel is 12 1/4". That being said, when I am driving to and from the field, I have generally kept it loaded in the car. My thought was (and perhaps this is wrong) that it's a pistol (albeit a shotgun pistol) and I have the CPL.

With a 12.25" barrel, your H&R meets the RCW definitions (9.41.010) of both a Short-barreled Shotgun (23) and a Pistol (18). Because it is a pistol, it would appear that you can carry it loaded in your vehicle if you have a valid CPL per the RCW carry law (9.41.050). However, because it is also a SBS, carrying it would appear to be in violation of RCW 9.41.190, which reads "(1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun." But if you read on, the exception to this restriction reads, "(4) It shall be an affirmative defense to a prosecution brought under this section that the machine gun or short-barreled shotgun was acquired prior to July 1, 1994, and is possessed in compliance with federal law."

You say that you acquired it in 2008 in accordance with federal law. That clearly satisfies 1 of 2 requirements for qualifying for the exception. What is not clear is whether you satisfy the date of acquisition requirement. The RCW doesn't specify whether you or another WA resident have to be the one to have acquired it before July 1, 1994. I always read these laws with a strict interpretation, so I would assume that you had to have acquired it before that date to qualify for the exception. And in that case, it doesn't appear that you do. However, I am not a lawyer, so I would consult one who can help you sort through the ambiguity in the RCWs.

It might also meet the SBS definition in the RCW:
"(23) "Short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun by any means of modification if such modified weapon has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

know that whatever the law, a zealous cop can detain you and let you sort it out in court...

its a gray line with an expensive potential...

best to call your local sheriff and ask him to write you a letter if he says its ok

(23) "Short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun by any means of modification if such modified weapon has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
(24) "Shotgun" means a weapon with one or more barrels, designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

Would not the definition of (23) have to take into account the definition of a "shotgun" in (24)? The Handy Gun was never "intended to be fired from the shoulder" as defined in (24) so therefore it would not meet the criteria established in (23)...

In regard to the July 1, 1994 provision, that would apply to Machine Guns as well. Does anyone here have experience with a machine gun manufactured prior to that date, personally acquired after 1994?

This is correct, assuming at no point the Handy Gun had a stock. According to the RCWs, the Handy-gun is a pistol.

(18) "Pistol" means any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.

This is another instance of differences between Federal and State definitions causing ambiguity.

Good point, I overlooked that detail. You're right - if it is not a shotgun by the State definition, it cannot be a SBS by the State definition.

The lack of pictures is what bugs me most about this thread