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Here's an interesting scenario for the I-594 experts
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3584ELK
Site Supporter / FFL Dealer
Location: Lake Andes, S. Dakota Joined: Thu Aug 8, 2013 Posts: 1253
Real Name: Mark
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I recently sold two pistols to a man whom I know is a solid guy. We jumped through all the paperwork hoops, got a PROCEED on his NICS check, sent a WA State Pistol Transfer Application on each pistol to his local PD, verified his CPL, and sent him on his way.
10 days later, I get a faxed copy of one of the PTA's with a DENY stamped across the top. WTF? So I call and call and leave messages trying to figure out why the denial, and why on only one pistol? How deo
In the fullness of time, I was able to surmise that said local PD only sent back one PTA because they assumed the 2nd PTA was a duplicate...I guess different serial numbers mean nothing. I also found out that my customer had a warrant outstanding. Marvelous. My question to the PD was "What happens now?" Evidently, they send my customer a letter telling him he his prohibited, that he should turn back to weapons until such time as he clears up his legal issues. So, I call the customer, inform him of the mess, and ask him to look into it. Turns out it is a small thing that blossomed into a bench warrant because he forgot about it.
Next, I am asked by his wife if she can have the pistols transferred into her name? Sure, just bring them in and we will process them through. "Okay, I will let you know when we want to come by."
A week goes by, and the guy's wife tells me her hubby got everything cleared up with the courts and will be coming by to the run the pistols back through the NICS check and PTA paperwork. Fine...let me know.
3 weeks have now expired (4 since the transfer) and still no word from the customer. Meanwhile, this denial is hanging out there. Or maybe it isn't. The state has been copied on the PTA's, but no word from the Firearms Unit.
I refuse to demand that the customer return the weapons for a 2nd bite at the apple. One- he got a PROCEED from FBI. Two- he possessed a CPL at time of transfer, and Three- I already performed my due diligence in carrying out the paperwork functions.
Isn't this POS I-594 great?
_________________"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson
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Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:43 am |
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MadPick
Site Admin
Location: Renton, WA Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 Posts: 52109
Real Name: Steve
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I don't know the details of the process . . . but in fairness, this doesn't sound like a 594 issue. The basic NICS and PTA process was in place before 594.
_________________SteveBenefactor Life Member, National Rifle AssociationLife Member, Second Amendment FoundationPatriot & Life Member, Gun Owners of AmericaLife Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear ArmsLegal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy CoalitionMember, NAGR/NFGRPlease support the organizations that support all of us.Leave it cleaner than you found it.
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Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:54 am |
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Benja455
Site Supporter
Location: White Center Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 Posts: 6489
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I guess without 594 you never would have known about the warrant because this sale would have taken place in a parking lot.
Not that it helped at all.
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Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:05 am |
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3584ELK
Site Supporter / FFL Dealer
Location: Lake Andes, S. Dakota Joined: Thu Aug 8, 2013 Posts: 1253
Real Name: Mark
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Okay, perhaps I should re- direct my puzzlement to once again asking WTF our representatives in Olympia are smoking?
_________________"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson
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Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:49 am |
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ANZAC
Site Supporter
Location: 12 Acres in Eastern WA Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 Posts: 7251
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3584ELK wrote: I recently sold two pistols to a man whom I know is a solid guy. We jumped through all the paperwork hoops, got a PROCEED on his NICS check, sent a WA State Pistol Transfer Application on each pistol to his local PD, verified his CPL, and sent him on his way. Are you an FFL? You call him a "customer"? Quote: 10 days later, I get a faxed copy of one of the PTA's with a DENY stamped across the top. WTF? So I call and call and leave messages trying to figure out why the denial, and why on only one pistol? How deo
In the fullness of time, I was able to surmise that said local PD only sent back one PTA because they assumed the 2nd PTA was a duplicate...
Did they explain why the first PTA and both 4473s got proceeds? Quote: Next, I am asked by his wife if she can have the pistols transferred into her name? Sure, just bring them in and we will process them through. "Okay, I will let you know when we want to come by." I would not have done that. You have a guy you know has some issue, and you're helping with some kind of constructive possession situation. Quote: 3 weeks have now expired (4 since the transfer) and still no word from the customer. Shocker. Quote: I refuse to demand that the customer return the weapons for a 2nd bite at the apple. One- he got a PROCEED from FBI. Two- he possessed a CPL at time of transfer, and Three- I already performed my due diligence in carrying out the paperwork functions.
Isn't this POS I-594 great? What does this have to do with 594? Were they private sales?
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Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:53 am |
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3584ELK
Site Supporter / FFL Dealer
Location: Lake Andes, S. Dakota Joined: Thu Aug 8, 2013 Posts: 1253
Real Name: Mark
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ANZAC wrote: 3584ELK wrote: I recently sold two pistols to a man whom I know is a solid guy. We jumped through all the paperwork hoops, got a PROCEED on his NICS check, sent a WA State Pistol Transfer Application on each pistol to his local PD, verified his CPL, and sent him on his way. Are you an FFL? You call him a "customer"? We have had this conversation before, sir. Yes, I am an FFL 01
Quote: 10 days later, I get a faxed copy of one of the PTA's with a DENY stamped across the top. WTF? So I call and call and leave messages trying to figure out why the denial, and why on only one pistol?
In the fullness of time, I was able to surmise that said local PD only sent back one PTA because they assumed the 2nd PTA was a duplicate...
Did they explain why the first PTA and both 4473s got proceeds? I was left to assume that the FBI database never caught the warrant out of K__ County, therefore the PROCEED from NICS. Since the local PD assumed the 2nd PTA was a duplicate, I am guessing it went into Circular File # 13, so there was no way to run a check on it.Quote: Next, I am asked by his wife if she can have the pistols transferred into her name? Sure, just bring them in and we will process them through. "Okay, I will let you know when we want to come by." I would not have done that. You have a guy you know has some issue, and you're helping with some kind of constructive possession situation. What would you have done? I am not going to become a one man enforcement arm for ATF, WA state, or any other cop shop. I made my request known in writing on more than one occasion, and I have it from ATF that I have done everything properly.Quote: 3 weeks have now expired (4 since the transfer) and still no word from the customer. Shocker. Agreed, but I am just the low life FFL.Quote: I refuse to demand that the customer return the weapons for a 2nd bite at the apple. One- he got a PROCEED from FBI. Two- he possessed a CPL at time of transfer, and Three- I already performed my due diligence in carrying out the paperwork functions.
Isn't this POS I-594 great? What does this have to do with 594? Were they private sales? They were sales from my LLC to the customer, not private party transfers. And, as I admitted above, I over stepped when pronouncing I-594 at fault. It's WA state RCW's and the local PD that convoluted the whole issue.
_________________"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson
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Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:29 am |
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bhpdrew
Site Supporter
Location: Spokane Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 Posts: 9653
Real Name: Hans Edlefreth III.
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Are you being paid to enforce the law? Are you a sworn peace officer? Honestly, if you are that concerned, I would suggest speaking to legal council. Being a relatively intelligent person, knowing what I know, I would guess you are alright. But, if it still itches you, contact legal council.
_________________ -A cowardly man thinks he will ever live, if warfare he avoids; but old age will give him no peace, though spears may spare him. "For I have always lived violently, drunk hugely, eaten too much or not at all, slept around the clock or missed two nights of sleeping, worked too hard and too long in glory, or slobbed for a time in utter laziness. I’ve lifted, pulled, chopped, climbed, made love with joy and taken my hangovers as a consequence, not as a punishment." -- John Steinbeck "Experience is one thing you can't get for nothing." -- Oscar Wilde "Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one." -- Marcus Aurelius "Now I'm off to check out Drew's dick." -- MadPick
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Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:16 am |
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3584ELK
Site Supporter / FFL Dealer
Location: Lake Andes, S. Dakota Joined: Thu Aug 8, 2013 Posts: 1253
Real Name: Mark
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Agreed...I think I am alright. I posted this for discussion, even though I don't have a resolution yet. Perhaps it can serve as some reference if it happens to another person on the board.
_________________"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson
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Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:31 am |
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deadshot2
Site Supporter
Location: Marysville, WA Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 Posts: 11581
Real Name: Mike
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In reading this "scenario", the guy wanted to transfer the firearms to his wife? As I understand one doesn't need to go through any transfer process. Direct relative and all that. Unless she's a prohibited person what's the big deal? Just has to make sure the firearms accessible to the the prohibited individual.
_________________ "I've learned from the Dog that an afternoon nap is a good thing"
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"For he to-day that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother" - William Shakespeare
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Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:04 am |
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3584ELK
Site Supporter / FFL Dealer
Location: Lake Andes, S. Dakota Joined: Thu Aug 8, 2013 Posts: 1253
Real Name: Mark
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My ATF IOI seemed to think the hubby to wife switcharoo was not a good idea...
_________________"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson
Last edited by 3584ELK on Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:14 am |
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ANZAC
Site Supporter
Location: 12 Acres in Eastern WA Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 Posts: 7251
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3584ELK wrote: My ATF IOI seemed to think the hibby to wife switcharoo was not a good idea... Definitely not a good idea.
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Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:19 am |
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Stokes
Site Supporter
Location: Oly Joined: Thu Oct 4, 2012 Posts: 1347
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You have a NTN and a proceed, and he has a CPL and did all he paperwork?
I'm not sure why you'd have any more involvement other than forward copies of paperwork to any of the authorities that would ask.
Sounds like it's everyone's business but yours at this point.
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Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:21 am |
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3584ELK
Site Supporter / FFL Dealer
Location: Lake Andes, S. Dakota Joined: Thu Aug 8, 2013 Posts: 1253
Real Name: Mark
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I believe the same as you.
_________________"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson
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Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:30 am |
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deadshot2
Site Supporter
Location: Marysville, WA Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 Posts: 11581
Real Name: Mike
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ANZAC wrote: 3584ELK wrote: My ATF IOI seemed to think the hibby to wife switcharoo was not a good idea... Definitely not a good idea. Care to elaborate? Since a "594 transfer" isn't required for direct family members what's the big deal other than keeping the prohibited person from "possessing" the firearms. If the wife has a safe and sole access? There's a big difference between "not a good idea" and "Illegal". Opinions of those in Law enforcement really don't hold much sway if the law is specific.
_________________ "I've learned from the Dog that an afternoon nap is a good thing"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For he to-day that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother" - William Shakespeare
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Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:16 am |
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solyanik
Site Supporter / FFL Dealer
Location: Seattle Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 Posts: 3420
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If you are an FFL, you were supposed to get training. Part of the training should have covered this. Repossession of the guns are up to the BATFE, to who you should have reported the incident. You also should have a contact at BATFE who you should be asking these questions, not on the internet forums.
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Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:07 am |
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