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Five gun reform laws that Mr Trump can act quickly upon

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ANZAC Site Supporter Location: 12 Acres in Eastern WA Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 Posts: 7251	Re: Five gun reform laws that Mr Trump can act quickly upon Guns4Liberty wrote: ANZAC wrote: The reciprocity will be a hot issue with the states. . . . Should the federal government have the power to override the law of a state? If the feds have the constitutional authority, then yes, of course. All of the federal constitutional amendments override state laws that violate them, do they not? I think the 2A is clearly intended to restrict government at all levels from infringing upon the Peoples' right to keep and bear arms. I can't imagine the Founders intended anything different. The 2A should be the justification for repealing carry permit requirements in the same way that the other amendments forbid the States from violating rights of free speech, religion, due process, etc. One of the requirements for the feds to make firearm laws is the movement of the guns in interstate commerce. I don't see that at work here. Go take a look at the constitution --- any power not reserved for the federal government in the constitution is given to the states. This is why we don't have federal background checks on private sales, or at least a big obstacle to it.
Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:26 am

Guns4Liberty Site Supporter Location: Lynnwood/Bothell Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 Posts: 8562 Real Name: Curtis	Re: Five gun reform laws that Mr Trump can act quickly upon ANZAC wrote: Guns4Liberty wrote: ANZAC wrote: The reciprocity will be a hot issue with the states. . . . Should the federal government have the power to override the law of a state? If the feds have the constitutional authority, then yes, of course. All of the federal constitutional amendments override state laws that violate them, do they not? I think the 2A is clearly intended to restrict government at all levels from infringing upon the Peoples' right to keep and bear arms. I can't imagine the Founders intended anything different. The 2A should be the justification for repealing carry permit requirements in the same way that the other amendments forbid the States from violating rights of free speech, religion, due process, etc. One of the requirements for the feds to make firearm laws is the movement of the guns in interstate commerce. I don't see that at work here. Go take a look at the constitution --- any power not reserved for the federal government in the constitution is given to the states. This is why we don't have federal background checks on private sales, or at least a big obstacle to it. No, interstate commerce has nothing to do with this. It has to do with upholding the 2A. Requiring permits, fees, registration, etc. for citizens to bear arms is clearly a violation of the 2A. Congress has the constitutional authority to reaffirm the Second Amendment by passing national constitutional carry, and assuming it survives the inevitable court challenge, the states carry laws (aside from those that already recognize constitutional carry) will be null and void because they are unconstitutional.
Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:31 am

jdhbulseye Site Supporter Location: Rochester, WA Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 Posts: 3761 Real Name: Mr. Idgaf	Re: Five gun reform laws that Mr Trump can act quickly upon ANZAC wrote: danoh wrote: ANZAC wrote: The reciprocity will be a hot issue with the states. And are we to accept the lowest common denominator restrictions of each state (eg mag capacity etc)? This is just impractical, the way states have already made a ton of laws. There are age differences where concealed carry licenses are issued, and many states that are may issue. Should the federal government have the power to override the law of a state? Let's say my permit is now good in CA, but the people who live in CA can't get a permit without a "good reason"..... doesn't make sense. So it means overturning "may issue" in every state. I don't see that happening. On the NICS improvements: it would be great to see some specifics here.... just saying making it "better" sounds like more Trump-isms. By that reasoning, your drivers license is no good in Califucknia. Congress made a law requiring every state accept other states driver licenses. Congress can fix this problem. There were no substantive differences between state driving laws, licenses were issued to anyone who could pass a test. There were no situations where an out of state resident could be licensed to drive where an in-state resident would be prohibited from obtaining a license. Some states have pretty severe carry/firearm restrictions. How do you propose they address the inequity, that a out of state CPL would be ok, but someone in state is subject to may-issue laws? The only possible fair solution would be to roll back may-issue as part of the same change, which I am sure a lot of states would take very strong objection to. Strike down may issue laws using as a basis the McDonald v Chicago decision which incorporated the 2A via the 14th and applied it to the states. Essentially tell states they must allow citizens to "bear arms" and cant make overly broad restrictions as to where i.e. disallowed in a courthouse is fine but disallowed in public generally not okay. Basically they would be telling the states the 2A allows bearing arms so each state has 3 options, allow CC but disallow OC, Allow OC but disallow CC, Allow both CC and OC. _________________ MadPick wrote: Without penetration data, the pics aren't of much use. Spoiler: show "Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." – T.S. Eliot "The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - St. George Tucker A careful definition of words would destroy half the agenda of the political left and scrutinizing evidence would destroy the other half. - Thomas Sowell "To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." - Jeff Snyder Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys. It realizes the ancient dream of the Jovian thunderbolt, and as such it is the embodiment of personal power. For this reason it exercises a curious influence over the minds of most men, and in its best examples it constitutes an object of affection unmatched by any other inanimate object. Jeff Cooper 1997 The Art of the Rifle Page 1. Spoiler: show SUGGEST CASE BE SUBMITTED ON APPELLANT'S BRIEF. UNABLE TO OBTAIN ANY MONEY FROM CLIENTS TO BE PRESENT & ARGUE BRIEF. The defense attorney's telegram to the clerk of the Supreme Court, March 29, 1939, in re United States. v. Miller. You don't need to go to Law School to understand the constitutional implications of that. “You can’t cut the throat of every cocksucker whose character it would improve.” Spoiler: show cityslicker wrote: I don't want to be told that I can't remove the tree by some tree-hugging pole smoker from the eat-a-dick foundation/Olympia/King County.
Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:10 am

ANZAC Site Supporter Location: 12 Acres in Eastern WA Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 Posts: 7251	Re: Five gun reform laws that Mr Trump can act quickly upon Guns4Liberty wrote: ANZAC wrote: The reciprocity will be a hot issue with the states. . . . Should the federal government have the power to override the law of a state? If the feds have the constitutional authority, then yes, of course. All of the federal constitutional amendments override state laws that violate them, do they not? I think the 2A is clearly intended to restrict government at all levels from infringing upon the Peoples' right to keep and bear arms. I can't imagine the Founders intended anything different. The 2A should be the justification for repealing carry permit requirements in the same way that the other amendments forbid the States from violating rights of free speech, religion, due process, etc. I don't think they can make a federal law on the basis of the bill of rights. SCOTUS or other courts can certainly overturn laws that violate them. If what you say is true, then "may issue" would have been overturned in at least one state. It hasn't. Heller was very limited in scope (home etc).
Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:16 am

ANZAC Site Supporter Location: 12 Acres in Eastern WA Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 Posts: 7251	Re: Five gun reform laws that Mr Trump can act quickly upon jdhbulseye wrote: Strike down may issue laws using as a basis the McDonald v Chicago decision which incorporated the 2A via the 14th and applied it to the states. Essentially tell states they must allow citizens to "bear arms" and cant make overly broad restrictions as to where i.e. disallowed in a courthouse is fine but disallowed in public generally not okay. Basically they would be telling the states the 2A allows bearing arms so each state has 3 options, allow CC but disallow OC, Allow OC but disallow CC, Allow both CC and OC. You are making my point for me --- reciprocity is a far larger change than saying "your license works everywhere", it is likely to meet very strong resistance from the states, and requires undoing a bunch of restrictive laws in many states or worse ---- causing more restrictive laws to be the denominator everywhere. (eg 10 rd mags in all states).
Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:27 am

jdhbulseye Site Supporter Location: Rochester, WA Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 Posts: 3761 Real Name: Mr. Idgaf	Re: Five gun reform laws that Mr Trump can act quickly upon ANZAC wrote: I don't think they can make a federal law on the basis of the bill of rights. SCOTUS or other courts can certainly overturn laws that violate them. If what you say is true, then "may issue" would have been overturned in at least one state. It hasn't. Heller was very limited in scope (home etc). The Democrat Demigoddess would seem to disagree with you: If it is a constitutional right, then it — like every other constitutional right — is subject to reasonable regulations" https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/06/05/hillary-clinton-wavers-on-second-amendment-right-to-bear-arms/ Yes Heller was limited in scope. That's why I mentioned McDonald v Chicago. So why are we dragging Heller in? may issue hasn't been brought to court yet that I know of. In light of the above case it could likely be struck down. _________________ MadPick wrote: Without penetration data, the pics aren't of much use. Spoiler: show "Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." – T.S. Eliot "The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - St. George Tucker A careful definition of words would destroy half the agenda of the political left and scrutinizing evidence would destroy the other half. - Thomas Sowell "To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." - Jeff Snyder Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys. It realizes the ancient dream of the Jovian thunderbolt, and as such it is the embodiment of personal power. For this reason it exercises a curious influence over the minds of most men, and in its best examples it constitutes an object of affection unmatched by any other inanimate object. Jeff Cooper 1997 The Art of the Rifle Page 1. Spoiler: show SUGGEST CASE BE SUBMITTED ON APPELLANT'S BRIEF. UNABLE TO OBTAIN ANY MONEY FROM CLIENTS TO BE PRESENT & ARGUE BRIEF. The defense attorney's telegram to the clerk of the Supreme Court, March 29, 1939, in re United States. v. Miller. You don't need to go to Law School to understand the constitutional implications of that. “You can’t cut the throat of every cocksucker whose character it would improve.” Spoiler: show cityslicker wrote: I don't want to be told that I can't remove the tree by some tree-hugging pole smoker from the eat-a-dick foundation/Olympia/King County. Last edited by jdhbulseye on Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:29 am

jdhbulseye Site Supporter Location: Rochester, WA Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 Posts: 3761 Real Name: Mr. Idgaf	Re: Five gun reform laws that Mr Trump can act quickly upon ANZAC wrote: jdhbulseye wrote: Strike down may issue laws using as a basis the McDonald v Chicago decision which incorporated the 2A via the 14th and applied it to the states. Essentially tell states they must allow citizens to "bear arms" and cant make overly broad restrictions as to where i.e. disallowed in a courthouse is fine but disallowed in public generally not okay. Basically they would be telling the states the 2A allows bearing arms so each state has 3 options, allow CC but disallow OC, Allow OC but disallow CC, Allow both CC and OC. You are making my point for me --- reciprocity is a far larger change than saying "your license works everywhere", it is likely to meet very strong resistance from the states, and requires undoing a bunch of restrictive laws in many states or worse ---- causing more restrictive laws to be the denominator everywhere. (eg 10 rd mags in all states). I believe you are absolutely 100% wrong on this. It is a specifically enumerated power of congress: Quote: To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; That and the fact that the 2A is incorporated against the states, or maybe even without regard to incorporation, means the congress could pass a law allowing CC or OC as part of their power to "discipline" the militia. That law would also simultaneously strike down state laws barring CC or OC. ETA source for powers of congress: https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei _________________ MadPick wrote: Without penetration data, the pics aren't of much use. Spoiler: show "Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." – T.S. Eliot "The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - St. George Tucker A careful definition of words would destroy half the agenda of the political left and scrutinizing evidence would destroy the other half. - Thomas Sowell "To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." - Jeff Snyder Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys. It realizes the ancient dream of the Jovian thunderbolt, and as such it is the embodiment of personal power. For this reason it exercises a curious influence over the minds of most men, and in its best examples it constitutes an object of affection unmatched by any other inanimate object. Jeff Cooper 1997 The Art of the Rifle Page 1. Spoiler: show SUGGEST CASE BE SUBMITTED ON APPELLANT'S BRIEF. UNABLE TO OBTAIN ANY MONEY FROM CLIENTS TO BE PRESENT & ARGUE BRIEF. The defense attorney's telegram to the clerk of the Supreme Court, March 29, 1939, in re United States. v. Miller. You don't need to go to Law School to understand the constitutional implications of that. “You can’t cut the throat of every cocksucker whose character it would improve.” Spoiler: show cityslicker wrote: I don't want to be told that I can't remove the tree by some tree-hugging pole smoker from the eat-a-dick foundation/Olympia/King County.
Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:38 am

leadcounsel Site Supporter Location: Can't say Joined: Sun Sep 7, 2014 Posts: 8134	Re: Five gun reform laws that Mr Trump can act quickly upon Well, with the POTUS, Senate, House, and SCOTUS the Dems hopefully get a taste of their own medicine. Pass whatever gun laws wanted. Make any anti-gun laws that are inconsistent with the 2A a violation of the law effective immediately. Such things would be arbitrary cosmetic bans, magazine bans, silencers, etc. The legal and moral authority would be in support since it's the 2A ... Remind them of Heller (individual right) and McDonald (incorporation). Let the Dems cry about it. Let them bring their case to the SCOTUS and we'll see how that plays out. _________________ I defend the 2A. US Army Combat Veteran and Paratrooper: OIF Veteran. BSM and MSM recipient. NRA Lifetime. Entertainment purposes only. I'm a lawyer, but have not offered you legal advice.
Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:02 pm

ANZAC Site Supporter Location: 12 Acres in Eastern WA Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 Posts: 7251	Re: Five gun reform laws that Mr Trump can act quickly upon jdhbulseye wrote: I believe you are absolutely 100% wrong on this. It is a specifically enumerated power of congress: Quote: To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; That and the fact that the 2A is incorporated against the states, or maybe even without regard to incorporation, means the congress could pass a law allowing CC or OC as part of their power to "discipline" the militia. That law would also simultaneously strike down state laws barring CC or OC. That's a stretch. Where is the organizing? Where is the discipline? I would contend this is the national guard. I don't ascribe to the reading of the 2A that the people are the militia. I do support the WA constitution and law that clearly enumerates it. Now, go and read the 10th amendment... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Ame ... ution#Text Also, read this: https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43033.pdf And US v Lopez: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... t_decision
Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:26 pm

Guns4Liberty Site Supporter Location: Lynnwood/Bothell Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 Posts: 8562 Real Name: Curtis	Re: Five gun reform laws that Mr Trump can act quickly upon ANZAC wrote: I don't ascribe to the reading of the 2A that the people are the militia. In my reading of the 2A, it is the People who secure the right, and that right shall not be infringed. Seems pretty clear to me.
Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:31 pm

kf7mjf Site Supporter Location: Olympia Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 Posts: 16044 Real Name: Steve	Re: Five gun reform laws that Mr Trump can act quickly upon ANZAC wrote: jdhbulseye wrote: I believe you are absolutely 100% wrong on this. It is a specifically enumerated power of congress: Quote: To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; That and the fact that the 2A is incorporated against the states, or maybe even without regard to incorporation, means the congress could pass a law allowing CC or OC as part of their power to "discipline" the militia. That law would also simultaneously strike down state laws barring CC or OC. That's a stretch. Where is the organizing? Where is the discipline? I would contend this is the national guard. I don't ascribe to the reading of the 2A that the people are the militia. I do support the WA constitution and law that clearly enumerates it. Now, go and read the 10th amendment... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Ame ... ution#Text Also, read this: https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43033.pdf And US v Lopez: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... t_decision The people as a whole have always been regarded as the militia, or at least those of an age for military service. In fact the US recognizes by statute the "unorganized militia" which is just that. _________________ "I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said." - William Buckley, Jr. "...steam, artillery and revolvers give to civilized man an irresistible power." -Perry Collins
Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:38 pm

Selador Site Supporter Location: Index Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 Posts: 12963 Real Name: Jeff	Re: Five gun reform laws that Mr Trump can act quickly upon ANZAC wrote: danoh wrote: ANZAC wrote: The reciprocity will be a hot issue with the states. And are we to accept the lowest common denominator restrictions of each state (eg mag capacity etc)? This is just impractical, the way states have already made a ton of laws. There are age differences where concealed carry licenses are issued, and many states that are may issue. Should the federal government have the power to override the law of a state? Let's say my permit is now good in CA, but the people who live in CA can't get a permit without a "good reason"..... doesn't make sense. So it means overturning "may issue" in every state. I don't see that happening. On the NICS improvements: it would be great to see some specifics here.... just saying making it "better" sounds like more Trump-isms. By that reasoning, your drivers license is no good in Califucknia. Congress made a law requiring every state accept other states driver licenses. Congress can fix this problem. There were no substantive differences between state driving laws, licenses were issued to anyone who could pass a test. There were no situations where an out of state resident could be licensed to drive where an in-state resident would be prohibited from obtaining a license. Some states have pretty severe carry/firearm restrictions. How do you propose they address the inequity, that a out of state CPL would be ok, but someone in state is subject to may-issue laws? The only possible fair solution would be to roll back may-issue as part of the same change, which I am sure a lot of states would take very strong objection to. Only one way to handle carry laws... If it is legal for you to own and possess a gun, it is legal for you to carry in whatever way you see fit. Only infringements, are common sense. None in a courtroom, etc... _________________ -Jeff How can I help you, and/or make you smile, today? You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to tell me what mine must be. Do justice. Love mercy. “I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” ~ Richard P. Feynman
Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:17 pm

NWGunner Site Supporter Location: South Seattle Joined: Thu May 2, 2013 Posts: 12475 Real Name: Steve	Re: Five gun reform laws that Mr Trump can act quickly upon There is a chance the scope of what 2A entails could broaden a bit at some point. One of the women judges Trump is considering for the Supreme Court is of the belief that shooting ranges are also protected under the 2nd Amendment
Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:07 pm

leadcounsel Site Supporter Location: Can't say Joined: Sun Sep 7, 2014 Posts: 8134	Re: Five gun reform laws that Mr Trump can act quickly upon NWGunner wrote: There is a chance the scope of what 2A entails could broaden a bit at some point. One of the women judges Trump is considering for the Supreme Court is of the belief that shooting ranges are also protected under the 2nd Amendment It would seem that anything related and directly connected to "bearing arms" and gun ownership would be protected either through implication or expressly. Laser guns - yes. Scary pointy knives and swords - yes. Bullets for guns - yes. Magazines for guns - yes. Areas to train with swords or guns - yes. Scopes for guns - yes. Components for bullets (lead, cases, primers, powder) - yes. _________________ I defend the 2A. US Army Combat Veteran and Paratrooper: OIF Veteran. BSM and MSM recipient. NRA Lifetime. Entertainment purposes only. I'm a lawyer, but have not offered you legal advice.
Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:21 pm

NWGunner Site Supporter Location: South Seattle Joined: Thu May 2, 2013 Posts: 12475 Real Name: Steve	Re: Five gun reform laws that Mr Trump can act quickly upon leadcounsel wrote: NWGunner wrote: There is a chance the scope of what 2A entails could broaden a bit at some point. One of the women judges Trump is considering for the Supreme Court is of the belief that shooting ranges are also protected under the 2nd Amendment It would seem that anything related and directly connected to "bearing arms" and gun ownership would be protected either through implication or expressly. Laser guns - yes. Scary pointy knives and swords - yes. Bullets for guns - yes. Magazines for guns - yes. Areas to train with swords or guns - yes. Scopes for guns - yes. Components for bullets (lead, cases, primers, powder) - yes. The point was that if a judge is making statements like this now, perhaps once on the Supreme Court, some of the expansions expressed in this thread have a better chance... But thanks for pointing out that bullets are connected to bearing arms, what would we ever do without you?
Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:52 pm

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