Question on rules for pistols in vehicle

[TwinPop]

Base assumption is that driver has CPL. Here is the question:

Is it permissible to have a loaded pistol in the glove box within reach of the driver? Does it make a difference if the glove box is locked?

[cmica]

read this

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5804&hilit=%2Aglovebox%2A

[Lew]

While recently perusing goodies in my local gun shop, conversation came up concerning this. I asked a question to the long time gun shop owner about the legalities of a CPL holder transporting a loaded pistol in a vehicle while it was locked in a safe (lock box). He said it was illegal. There happened to be a King County Sheriff in the shop that interjected, "it all depends on the circumstance as to why we would be questioning it. Huh? So I plainly asked him "is it legal", the answer given to me was, no. I honestly think neither one really knew the correct interpretation of the law. Because of this, I have since decided to carry it in the lock box unloaded with the loaded magazine in the box next to the pistol....just to cover my ass from someone's "interpretation" of the law. Gun laws have gotten so convoluted that it seems even law enforcement don't know how to interpret them.

[MadPick]

Well, here's the law (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050):

(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

Assuming that the CPL holder ("licensee") is in the vehicle, I don't see any restrictions on where in the vehicle the pistol can be or whether it's locked up.

[UpDog]

Well, here's the law (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050):

(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

Assuming that the CPL holder ("licensee") is in the vehicle, I don't see any restrictions on where in the vehicle the pistol can be or whether it's locked up.

I disagree. Notice (i) and (ii) are not separated by an "or" as shown with (iii) in that RCW which gives the option vehicle storing while 'away from the vehicle". It's clear as day.

[dagamore]

Well, here's the law (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050):

(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

Assuming that the CPL holder ("licensee") is in the vehicle, I don't see any restrictions on where in the vehicle the pistol can be or whether it's locked up.

I disagree. Notice (i) and (ii) are not separated by an "or" as shown with (iii) in that RCW which gives the option vehicle storing while 'away from the vehicle". It's clear as day.

right thats how I read it as well, rcw reads that it has to be on the person when they are in the car, for the pistol to be loaded, and if they are not it has to be locked up and out of site(think safe storage type thing).

[Lew]

[MadPick]

Well, I *think* that you guys are misinterpreting it. However, I'm not 100% sure of this.

When the law says, "X, Y or Z" then I think that's equivalent to "X or Y or Z," not "X and Y or Z."

"You must buy Winchester, Remington, or Mossberg" means you need to buy any one of those.
"You must buy Winchester, Remington, and Mossberg" means you need to buy all three.

Check out this web page: http://leg.wa.gov/CodeReviser/Documents ... nStyle.pdf

The second paragraph from the top caught my eye:

Code:

(i) In a series of three or more words or phrases, a comma is used after each item except the last, as in
"officers, deputies, and employees." This rule applies to both conjunctive, "and," and disjunctive, "or," series.

The phrases "conjunctive series" and "disjunctive series" got me thinking.

[DocNugent]

Well, I *think* that you guys are misinterpreting it. However, I'm not 100% sure of this.

When the law says, "X, Y or Z" then I think that's equivalent to "X or Y or Z," not "X and Y or Z."

"You must buy Winchester, Remington, or Mossberg" means you need to buy any one of those.
"You must buy Winchester, Remington, and Mossberg" means you need to buy all three.

Check out this web page: http://leg.wa.gov/CodeReviser/Documents ... nStyle.pdf . . . .

Yup, Code Revisor rulz.

[dagamore]

Well, I *think* that you guys are misinterpreting it. However, I'm not 100% sure of this.

When the law says, "X, Y or Z" then I think that's equivalent to "X or Y or Z," not "X and Y or Z."

Too bad that courts have upheld it to mean the following, X and Y or only Z, not any of the three but the first two or the third with out either of the first two being applicable.

[TwinPop]

I appreciate the varying viewpoints. Lew's point about varying interpretations is frightening and unfortunately a reality. Whether it is a LEO or prosecutor with a burr under their saddle an otherwise upstanding citizen could get taken down. How sad that more resources and punishment are likely to be thrown at this upstanding citizen based on interpretation than the punk stealing cars or breaking into homes (no interpretation necessary... unless it is Spanish or smack from the hood dialect).

[CurtisLemansky]

Well, I *think* that you guys are misinterpreting it. However, I'm not 100% sure of this.

When the law says, "X, Y or Z" then I think that's equivalent to "X or Y or Z," not "X and Y or Z."

Too bad that courts have upheld it to mean the following, X and Y or only Z, not any of the three but the first two or the third with out either of the first two being applicable.

What court cases have upheld that interpretation?


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[CurtisLemansky]

Well, here's the law (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050):

(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

Assuming that the CPL holder ("licensee") is in the vehicle, I don't see any restrictions on where in the vehicle the pistol can be or whether it's locked up.

I disagree. Notice (i) and (ii) are not separated by an "or" as shown with (iii) in that RCW which gives the option vehicle storing while 'away from the vehicle". It's clear as day.

If that interpretation were true, then (ii) is redundant because either the licensee is carrying the loaded pistol on their person in the vehicle or it's locked up while they're away. There would be no reason to define that the licensee should remain in the vehicle while it's there.


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[ANZAC]

Agree with Steve.

Yes, as long as you are within the vehicle (ii) it can be loaded and stored anywhere in the vehicle.

Although I wonder if it was on the person who did not have a CPL, but was in the vehicle...

[Normanator]

I have been stopped multiples times across the state for varying reasons (including speeding, lights being out, and at DUI checks as well as had officers at my window directing traffic during road closures and at accidents- so various moods of the officers, city, county, and state) and there has been a pistol holstered (and twice not- but it was not loaded and in back) sitting on my passenger seat in plain sight. Every time I was asked if it was loaded and could I show my CPL. Not once did I ever have any further issue, nor did any officer tell me it was illegal- they only asked that I not reach for it, and one asked it I would place it on the passenger floor until he was done.

Granted this does not mean it is not illegal, but I can think of 6 times it has happened with 6 different officers, so I figure if there was any concern with illegality it would have come up, especially when getting a ticket for something already.
Also- it if far easier to just have the pistol holstered, but sometimes it is less comfortable on long drives across the state, or while hunting when my sidearm is a 8" revolver.