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[ 14 posts ] |
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Matador
Location: Vancouver Joined: Mon Dec 8, 2014 Posts: 5
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Hello all,
I live in BC Canada and am a Canadian/American dual citizen. I often visit my mother in WA and was wondering the legalities of me taking her Glock 19 to the range or to the woods for target practice?
As a dual citizen I have a US passport, and my ID and drivers license are canadian, would I need her in attendance or is it totally legal for me to go alone? This has never been clear to me.
Cheers guys!
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Sun Nov 06, 2016 2:46 am |
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MadPick
Site Admin
Location: Renton, WA Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 Posts: 52275
Real Name: Steve
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First post!! Since you are a U.S. citizen, I don't see any issues from that standpoint. The problem that you'll have is with Washington state's law, compliments of the idiotic Initiative 594 two years ago, that regulates "transfers" of firearms. The law is a bit vague, but I think most would agree that it makes it illegal for her to let you borrow the gun for a solo range trip.
_________________SteveBenefactor Life Member, National Rifle AssociationLife Member, Second Amendment FoundationPatriot & Life Member, Gun Owners of AmericaLife Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear ArmsLegal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy CoalitionMember, NAGR/NFGRPlease support the organizations that support all of us.Leave it cleaner than you found it.
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Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:35 am |
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jdhbulseye
Site Supporter
Location: Rochester, WA Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 Posts: 3761
Real Name: Mr. Idgaf
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The law is less hazy if she goes with you. On the bright side at least you don't have to secure a permit from the federal police to transport a pistol from your house to any given destination ahead of time like some places *cough* Canada *cough*; because we all know that would stop someone who was already set on breaking laws right in their tracks.
_________________MadPick wrote: Without penetration data, the pics aren't of much use. - Spoiler: show
- "Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." – T.S. Eliot
"The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - St. George Tucker
A careful definition of words would destroy half the agenda of the political left and scrutinizing evidence would destroy the other half. - Thomas Sowell
"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow...
For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." - Jeff Snyder
Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys. It realizes the ancient dream of the Jovian thunderbolt, and as such it is the embodiment of personal power. For this reason it exercises a curious influence over the minds of most men, and in its best examples it constitutes an object of affection unmatched by any other inanimate object.
Jeff Cooper 1997 The Art of the Rifle Page 1.
- Spoiler: show
- SUGGEST CASE BE SUBMITTED ON APPELLANT'S BRIEF. UNABLE TO OBTAIN ANY MONEY FROM CLIENTS TO BE PRESENT & ARGUE BRIEF.
The defense attorney's telegram to the clerk of the Supreme Court, March 29, 1939, in re United States. v. Miller.
You don't need to go to Law School to understand the constitutional implications of that.
“You can’t cut the throat of every cocksucker whose character it would improve.” - Spoiler: show
cityslicker wrote: I don't want to be told that I can't remove the tree by some tree-hugging pole smoker from the eat-a-dick foundation/Olympia/King County.
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Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:53 am |
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ANZAC
Site Supporter
Location: 12 Acres in Eastern WA Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 Posts: 7254
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There is an exemption for gifts between members of immediate family:
"(4) This section does not apply to:
A transfer between immediate family members, which for this subsection shall be limited to spouses, domestic partners, parents, children, siblings, grandparents, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, first cousins, aunts, and uncles, that is a bona fide gift;"
So, she can gift it to you, and you can gift it to her, no background check required.
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Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:00 am |
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MadPick
Site Admin
Location: Renton, WA Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 Posts: 52275
Real Name: Steve
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ANZAC wrote: There is an exemption for gifts between members of immediate family:
"(4) This section does not apply to:
A transfer between immediate family members, which for this subsection shall be limited to spouses, domestic partners, parents, children, siblings, grandparents, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, first cousins, aunts, and uncles, that is a bona fide gift;"
So, she can gift it to you, and you can gift it to her, no background check required. Yeah . . . with a wink and a nod, and hope you never need to defend it. Come on, ANZAC. Don't play both sides here.
_________________SteveBenefactor Life Member, National Rifle AssociationLife Member, Second Amendment FoundationPatriot & Life Member, Gun Owners of AmericaLife Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear ArmsLegal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy CoalitionMember, NAGR/NFGRPlease support the organizations that support all of us.Leave it cleaner than you found it.
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Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:03 am |
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Guntrader
In Memoriam
Location: Mukilteoish Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 Posts: 11595
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I've been shooting for almost 40 years, never had anyone ask me for a guns serial number or where I got it from. If the cops are trying to find out where you got a particular gun from, you have much bigger problems than a 594 charge.
_________________ NRA Endowment Member. How did they know my member was well endowed?
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Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:15 am |
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ANZAC
Site Supporter
Location: 12 Acres in Eastern WA Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 Posts: 7254
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MadPick wrote: ANZAC wrote: There is an exemption for gifts between members of immediate family:
"(4) This section does not apply to:
A transfer between immediate family members, which for this subsection shall be limited to spouses, domestic partners, parents, children, siblings, grandparents, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, first cousins, aunts, and uncles, that is a bona fide gift;"
So, she can gift it to you, and you can gift it to her, no background check required. Yeah . . . with a wink and a nod, and hope you never need to defend it. Come on, ANZAC. Don't play both sides here. She could give it to him, and store it in a safe there for his use. The text says transfers include gifts and loans, and so the exception to the rule requiring a background check for transfers including gift and loans includes immediate family members. With this exception that is in the law, I think you would be hard pressed to find a cop that would interpret it as being illegal for a mother to give her son a gun to go and use.
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Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:10 am |
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MadPick
Site Admin
Location: Renton, WA Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 Posts: 52275
Real Name: Steve
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ANZAC wrote: The text says transfers include gifts and loans, and so the exception to the rule requiring a background check for transfers including gift and loans includes immediate family members. Cite please . . . where does it say that loans to family members are allowed? Educate me.
_________________SteveBenefactor Life Member, National Rifle AssociationLife Member, Second Amendment FoundationPatriot & Life Member, Gun Owners of AmericaLife Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear ArmsLegal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy CoalitionMember, NAGR/NFGRPlease support the organizations that support all of us.Leave it cleaner than you found it.
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Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:21 am |
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jdhbulseye
Site Supporter
Location: Rochester, WA Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 Posts: 3761
Real Name: Mr. Idgaf
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Yeah, I'd like a citation for the legality of loaning too. I don't think the "gift" thing would fly if someone wanted to be a prick about it. bona fide adj [Latin, in good faith] 1 a : characterized by good faith and lack of fraud or deceit [a bona fide offer] b : valid under or in compliance with the law [retirement incentives made part of a bona fide employee benefit plan] 2 : made with or characterized by sincerity [a bona fide belief] 3 : being real or genuine [bona fide residents] gift n 1 : an intentional and gratuitous transfer of real or personal property by a donor with legal capacity who actually or constructively delivers the property to the donee with the intent of giving up dominion over the property and investing it in the donee who accepts it Source: http://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/bona-fide.htmlhttp://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/gift.html
_________________MadPick wrote: Without penetration data, the pics aren't of much use. - Spoiler: show
- "Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." – T.S. Eliot
"The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - St. George Tucker
A careful definition of words would destroy half the agenda of the political left and scrutinizing evidence would destroy the other half. - Thomas Sowell
"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow...
For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." - Jeff Snyder
Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys. It realizes the ancient dream of the Jovian thunderbolt, and as such it is the embodiment of personal power. For this reason it exercises a curious influence over the minds of most men, and in its best examples it constitutes an object of affection unmatched by any other inanimate object.
Jeff Cooper 1997 The Art of the Rifle Page 1.
- Spoiler: show
- SUGGEST CASE BE SUBMITTED ON APPELLANT'S BRIEF. UNABLE TO OBTAIN ANY MONEY FROM CLIENTS TO BE PRESENT & ARGUE BRIEF.
The defense attorney's telegram to the clerk of the Supreme Court, March 29, 1939, in re United States. v. Miller.
You don't need to go to Law School to understand the constitutional implications of that.
“You can’t cut the throat of every cocksucker whose character it would improve.” - Spoiler: show
cityslicker wrote: I don't want to be told that I can't remove the tree by some tree-hugging pole smoker from the eat-a-dick foundation/Olympia/King County.
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Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:36 am |
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OhShoot!
Site Supporter
Location: Bellingham Canada Joined: Thu Jan 3, 2013 Posts: 4999
Real Name: Josheewa
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I believe if it is within the family it is ok to transfer and won't need a bg check. I'd take it out anyway. Just keep it locked and unloaded in the trunk during the car ride to the range.
_________________ It must be frustrating always being the smartest person in the room.-Jagerbomber35
Divided we fall.
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Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:40 am |
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ANZAC
Site Supporter
Location: 12 Acres in Eastern WA Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 Posts: 7254
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MadPick wrote: ANZAC wrote: The text says transfers include gifts and loans, and so the exception to the rule requiring a background check for transfers including gift and loans includes immediate family members. Cite please . . . where does it say that loans to family members are allowed? Educate me. It says that transfers, which are defined to include gifts and loans, do not require a background check for transfers to family members. Nowhere is a gift defined as not a loan. "(25) " Transfer" means the intended delivery of a firearm to another person without consideration of payment or promise of payment including, but not limited to, gifts and loans." So, as long as it is without consideration of payment, transfers include gifts and loans. "A transfer (INCLUDING GIFTS AND LOANS - from the definition) between immediate family members, which for this subsection shall be limited to spouses, domestic partners, parents, children, siblings, grandparents, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, first cousins, aunts, and uncles, that is a bona fide gift;" If they meant ONLY gifts and not all transfers, they would have said the exception was "A GIFT between immediate family members". (by bona-fide gift, they mean no money changing hands)
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Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:07 am |
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jdhbulseye
Site Supporter
Location: Rochester, WA Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 Posts: 3761
Real Name: Mr. Idgaf
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ANZAC wrote: MadPick wrote: ANZAC wrote: The text says transfers include gifts and loans, and so the exception to the rule requiring a background check for transfers including gift and loans includes immediate family members. Cite please . . . where does it say that loans to family members are allowed? Educate me. It says that transfers, which are defined to include gifts and loans, do not require a background check for transfers to family members. Nowhere is a gift defined as not a loan. "(25) " Transfer" means the intended delivery of a firearm to another person without consideration of payment or promise of payment including, but not limited to, gifts and loans." So, as long as it is without consideration of payment, transfers include gifts and loans. "A transfer (INCLUDING GIFTS AND LOANS - from the definition) between immediate family members, which for this subsection shall be limited to spouses, domestic partners, parents, children, siblings, grandparents, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, first cousins, aunts, and uncles, that is a bona fide gift;" If they meant ONLY gifts and not all transfers, they would have said the exception was "A GIFT between immediate family members". (by bona-fide gift, they mean no money changing hands) Your reading of the law in question is broad. Quote: (4) This section does not apply to: (a) A transfer between immediate family members, which for this subsection shall be limited to spouses, domestic partners, parents, children, siblings, grandparents, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, first cousins, aunts, and uncles, that is a bona fide gift; (b) The sale or transfer of an antique firearm; (c) A temporary transfer of possession of a firearm if such transfer is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to the person to whom the firearm is transferred if: (i) The temporary transfer only lasts as long as immediately necessary to prevent such imminent death or great bodily harm A simpler way of saying the above is: This section does not apply to a transfer between immediate family members... that is a bona fide gift. As soon as they put down the words "that is a bona fide gift" they modified the definition of "transfer" as it applies to this particular subsection of the law. In other words bona fide gifts between family members are excepted but loans are only excepted for an express purpose which doesn't include a trip to the range. *Edited to correct formatting errors.
_________________MadPick wrote: Without penetration data, the pics aren't of much use. - Spoiler: show
- "Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." – T.S. Eliot
"The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - St. George Tucker
A careful definition of words would destroy half the agenda of the political left and scrutinizing evidence would destroy the other half. - Thomas Sowell
"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow...
For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." - Jeff Snyder
Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys. It realizes the ancient dream of the Jovian thunderbolt, and as such it is the embodiment of personal power. For this reason it exercises a curious influence over the minds of most men, and in its best examples it constitutes an object of affection unmatched by any other inanimate object.
Jeff Cooper 1997 The Art of the Rifle Page 1.
- Spoiler: show
- SUGGEST CASE BE SUBMITTED ON APPELLANT'S BRIEF. UNABLE TO OBTAIN ANY MONEY FROM CLIENTS TO BE PRESENT & ARGUE BRIEF.
The defense attorney's telegram to the clerk of the Supreme Court, March 29, 1939, in re United States. v. Miller.
You don't need to go to Law School to understand the constitutional implications of that.
“You can’t cut the throat of every cocksucker whose character it would improve.” - Spoiler: show
cityslicker wrote: I don't want to be told that I can't remove the tree by some tree-hugging pole smoker from the eat-a-dick foundation/Olympia/King County.
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Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:34 am |
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jdhbulseye
Site Supporter
Location: Rochester, WA Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 Posts: 3761
Real Name: Mr. Idgaf
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In addition since it has not been cited clearly yet on this thread (including by me so don't get your panties in a wad anyone) below is the link to the actual final text of I-594 direct from the WA Secretary of State website: https://sos.wa.gov/_assets/elections/initiatives/FinalText_483.pdf
_________________MadPick wrote: Without penetration data, the pics aren't of much use. - Spoiler: show
- "Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." – T.S. Eliot
"The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - St. George Tucker
A careful definition of words would destroy half the agenda of the political left and scrutinizing evidence would destroy the other half. - Thomas Sowell
"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow...
For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." - Jeff Snyder
Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys. It realizes the ancient dream of the Jovian thunderbolt, and as such it is the embodiment of personal power. For this reason it exercises a curious influence over the minds of most men, and in its best examples it constitutes an object of affection unmatched by any other inanimate object.
Jeff Cooper 1997 The Art of the Rifle Page 1.
- Spoiler: show
- SUGGEST CASE BE SUBMITTED ON APPELLANT'S BRIEF. UNABLE TO OBTAIN ANY MONEY FROM CLIENTS TO BE PRESENT & ARGUE BRIEF.
The defense attorney's telegram to the clerk of the Supreme Court, March 29, 1939, in re United States. v. Miller.
You don't need to go to Law School to understand the constitutional implications of that.
“You can’t cut the throat of every cocksucker whose character it would improve.” - Spoiler: show
cityslicker wrote: I don't want to be told that I can't remove the tree by some tree-hugging pole smoker from the eat-a-dick foundation/Olympia/King County.
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Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:42 am |
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golddigger14s
Site Supporter
Location: Faxon, OK Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 Posts: 17886
Real Name: Chuck
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594...... Clear as muddy water, just the way they wanted it.
_________________ "The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson "Evil often triumphs, but never conquers." Joseph Roux
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Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:03 pm |
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