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 Ashli Babbit's Murderers identity partly exposed 
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SurfPerch wrote:
Pvanderzee wrote:
And remember, it doesn't matter if the mob outside is actually being violent or not. What matters is what a reasonable person in that situation would do with the knowledge they had at the time...


No, it doesn't matter "what a reasonable person in that situation would do".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide
Quote:
The key to this legal defense is that it was reasonable for the subject to believe that there was an imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent by the deceased when they committed the homicide. A homicide in this instance is blameless.[[/b]


Remove any component from this and you're a murderer.

Byrd is the only idiot on the force with a habit to hold his twitchy finger on a trigger in the whole Jan 6 riots who believed that. How is this "reasonable"? Only trial could "exonerate" him.


You literally just stated that I was wrong, then reposted what I said, which was that one legal defense to homicide is basically the "reasonable person" test.

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Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:11 pm
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Pvanderzee wrote:
SurfPerch wrote:
Pvanderzee wrote:
And remember, it doesn't matter if the mob outside is actually being violent or not. What matters is what a reasonable person in that situation would do with the knowledge they had at the time...


No, it doesn't matter "what a reasonable person in that situation would do".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide
Quote:
The key to this legal defense is that it was reasonable for the subject to believe that there was an imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent by the deceased when they committed the homicide. A homicide in this instance is blameless.[[/b]


Remove any component from this and you're a murderer.

Byrd is the only idiot on the force with a habit to hold his twitchy finger on a trigger in the whole Jan 6 riots who believed that. How is this "reasonable"? Only trial could "exonerate" him.


You literally just stated that I was wrong, then reposted what I said, which was that one legal defense to homicide is basically the "reasonable person" test.


The question for the law is not "what reasonable person would do". It is specific things a reasonable person would need to believe before doing a killing. And that's a more narrow look into a situation. Was there really a threat of death etc.? Was it imminent? Was the threat of death etc. was otherwise unavoidable? I consider myself a reasonable person and looking at the video of her killing I say "no" to all three... There may be different opinions. So - trial by jury is necessary. Not denial of prosecution.

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Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.”

Ronald Reagan Oct. 27, 1964


Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:22 pm
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SurfPerch wrote:
Pvanderzee wrote:
SurfPerch wrote:
Pvanderzee wrote:
And remember, it doesn't matter if the mob outside is actually being violent or not. What matters is what a reasonable person in that situation would do with the knowledge they had at the time...


No, it doesn't matter "what a reasonable person in that situation would do".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide
Quote:
The key to this legal defense is that it was reasonable for the subject to believe that there was an imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent by the deceased when they committed the homicide. A homicide in this instance is blameless.[[/b]


Remove any component from this and you're a murderer.

Byrd is the only idiot on the force with a habit to hold his twitchy finger on a trigger in the whole Jan 6 riots who believed that. How is this "reasonable"? Only trial could "exonerate" him.


You literally just stated that I was wrong, then reposted what I said, which was that one legal defense to homicide is basically the "reasonable person" test.



The question for the law is not "what reasonable person would do". It is specific things a reasonable person would need to believe before doing a killing. And that's a more narrow look into a situation. Was there really a threat of death etc.? Was it imminent? Was the threat of death etc. was otherwise unavoidable? I consider myself a reasonable person and looking at the video of her killing I say "no" to all three... There may be different opinions. So - trial by jury is necessary. Not denial of prosecution.



Disparity of force.

Just because you only shoot one person doesn't mean 3 aren't trying to 'attack'...

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Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:31 pm
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SurfPerch wrote:
Pvanderzee wrote:
SurfPerch wrote:
Pvanderzee wrote:
And remember, it doesn't matter if the mob outside is actually being violent or not. What matters is what a reasonable person in that situation would do with the knowledge they had at the time...


No, it doesn't matter "what a reasonable person in that situation would do".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide
Quote:
The key to this legal defense is that it was reasonable for the subject to believe that there was an imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent by the deceased when they committed the homicide. A homicide in this instance is blameless.[[/b]


Remove any component from this and you're a murderer.

Byrd is the only idiot on the force with a habit to hold his twitchy finger on a trigger in the whole Jan 6 riots who believed that. How is this "reasonable"? Only trial could "exonerate" him.


You literally just stated that I was wrong, then reposted what I said, which was that one legal defense to homicide is basically the "reasonable person" test.


The question for the law is not "what reasonable person would do". It is specific things a reasonable person would need to believe before doing a killing. And that's a more narrow look into a situation. Was there really a threat of death etc.? Was it imminent? Was the threat of death etc. was otherwise unavoidable? I consider myself a reasonable person and looking at the video of her killing I say "no" to all three... There may be different opinions. So - trial by jury is necessary. Not denial of prosecution.


In other words, you're arguing because I'm paraphrasing.

Got it.

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Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:36 pm
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Pvanderzee wrote:
SurfPerch wrote:
The question for the law is not "what reasonable person would do". It is specific things a reasonable person would need to believe before doing a killing. And that's a more narrow look into a situation. Was there really a threat of death etc.? Was it imminent? Was the threat of death etc. was otherwise unavoidable? I consider myself a reasonable person and looking at the video of her killing I say "no" to all three... There may be different opinions. So - trial by jury is necessary. Not denial of prosecution.


In other words, you're arguing because I'm paraphrasing.

Got it.


I made a point that your "paraphrasing" in "what reasonable person would do"" distract from discussion of three main questions of the law (death threat, its imminence and unavoidability) for a reasonable person to believe and may lead into weeds of moral, political etc. motivations of a so called otherwise "reasonable person". You've chosen to ignore and dismiss my clarification. Got it.

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Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.”

Ronald Reagan Oct. 27, 1964


Last edited by SurfPerch on Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:01 pm
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TechnoWeenie wrote:
Disparity of force.

Just because you only shoot one person doesn't mean 3 aren't trying to 'attack'...


If Ashli would make it through the window before she was shot - he'd face a single unarmed petit woman who did not state any intentions to threat anybody's life with the rest still behind closed door as chokepoint where trespassers would need to make it through high narrow broken window one by one. Petit woman was the only one in a group who felt she can make it. That's not 1) a threat to life 2) the threat is not imminent and 3)it was avoidable - he could just retreat into the chamber from lobby - or into a bathroom where he could leave his gun again. Or he could arrest her right there at the door for a trespass. To claim "disparity of force" he'd need to let several people through the window first. Nothing of that happened and Ashli fell back off the window on her side of the door. She did not even made beyond the door to threat anybody (imminence)...

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Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.”

Ronald Reagan Oct. 27, 1964


Last edited by SurfPerch on Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:14 pm
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SurfPerch wrote:
Pvanderzee wrote:
SurfPerch wrote:
The question for the law is not "what reasonable person would do". It is specific things a reasonable person would need to believe before doing a killing. And that's a more narrow look into a situation. Was there really a threat of death etc.? Was it imminent? Was the threat of death etc. was otherwise unavoidable? I consider myself a reasonable person and looking at the video of her killing I say "no" to all three... There may be different opinions. So - trial by jury is necessary. Not denial of prosecution.


In other words, you're arguing because I'm paraphrasing.

Got it.


I made a point that your "paraphrasing" in "what reasonable person would do"" distract from discussion of three main questions of the law (death threat, its imminence and unavoidability) for a reasonable person to believe and may lead into weeds of moral, political etc. motivations of a so called otherwise "reasonable person". You've chosen to ignore and dismiss my clarification. Got it.


Is "reasonable" in my paraphrasing any more or less subjective than the "reasonable" in your quote?
Both questions will lead to them same answer if you use the same definition of "reasonable."
So no, I'm not dismissing it. You're arguing over paraphrasing.

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Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:18 pm
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Pvanderzee wrote:
Is "reasonable" in my paraphrasing any more or less subjective than the "reasonable" in your quote?
Both questions will lead to them same answer if you use the same definition of "reasonable."
So no, I'm not dismissing it. You're arguing over paraphrasing.


No, the point was not about use of term "reasonable". It is about what it is attached to. You attached it the action: "what the reasonable person do". Like in statement "I would shoot that bitch too..." So? Does it make the killing suddenly legal?...

The law is more specific - it is about three specific things any reasonable person would believe while in the shooter shoes. What the reasonable person would still do in his shoes is irrelevant.

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Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.”

Ronald Reagan Oct. 27, 1964


Last edited by SurfPerch on Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:28 pm
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SurfPerch wrote:
Pvanderzee wrote:
Is "reasonable" in my paraphrasing any more or less subjective than the "reasonable" in your quote?
Both questions will lead to them same answer if you use the same definition of "reasonable."
So no, I'm not dismissing it. You're arguing over paraphrasing.


No, the point was not about use of term "reasonable". It is about what it is attached to. You attached it the action: "what the reasonable person do". Like in statement "I would shoot that bitch too..." Why? Who cares...

The law is more specific - it is about three specific things any reasonable person would believe while in the shooter shoes. What the reasonable person would still do in his shoes is irrelevant.


...You realize that "believe" is a verb, yes?

As in...an "action," a thing you "do?"

You're quoting the law. I'm talking about the standard. Paraphrasing. Not meant to be exact.

We are not in disagreement. You're just arguing.

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Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:32 pm
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Pvanderzee wrote:
...You realize that "believe" is a verb, yes?

As in...an "action," a thing you "do?"

You're quoting the law. I'm talking about the standard. Paraphrasing. Not meant to be exact.

We are not in disagreement. You're just arguing.


Ok. Not meant to be exact. I did mean to be exact otherwise that whole argument is meaningless.
You read it in this thread: "We all" "proclaim" "good shoot". Because "we'd do the same". I have disagreement with that.

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Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.”

Ronald Reagan Oct. 27, 1964


Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:40 pm
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SurfPerch wrote:
TechnoWeenie wrote:
Disparity of force.

Just because you only shoot one person doesn't mean 3 aren't trying to 'attack'...


If Ashli would make it through the window before she was shot - he'd face a single unarmed petit woman who did not state any intentions to threat anybody's life with the rest still behind closed door as chokepoint where trespassers would need to make it through high narrow broken window one by one. Petit woman was the only one in a group who felt she can make it. That's not 1) a threat to life 2) the threat is not imminent and 3)it was avoidable - he could just retreat into the chamber from lobby - or into a bathroom where he could leave his gun again. Or he could arrest her right there at the door for a trespass. To claim "disparity of force" he'd need to let several people through the window first. Nothing of that happened and Ashli fell back off the window on her side of the door. She did not even made beyond the door to threat anybody (imminence)...

Devil's advocate: How did the officer know that she wasn't carrying a bomb? Members of Congress were inside that room.

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Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:45 pm
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How did federal officers know that the antifa and blm trying to burn down the federal courthouse in Portland weren't carrying bombs? Oh wait, THEY WERE CARRYING FIREBOMBS AND THEY STILL DIDN'T GET SHOT.

Un-fucking believable.

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If you have family or friends voting for Biden show them this and ask if they are willing to vote for your murder or maybe even their own if they are gun owners or live with any.
https://nypost.com/2020/03/03/joe-biden ... n-control/
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“I want to make something clear, I’m going to guarantee you this is not the last you’ve seen of him (Beto),” Biden said Monday evening during a campaign rally in Dallas. “You’re (Beto) going to take care of the gun problem with me. You’re (Beto) going to be the one who leads this effort.”

https://www.newsweek.com/beto-orourke-g ... ns-1465738
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[Beto O'Rourke Suggests Police Would 'Visit' Homes To Implement Proposed Assault Weapons Ban] "In that case, I think that there would be a visit by law enforcement to recover that firearm... ..."If someone does not turn in an AR-15 or an AK-47, one of these weapons of war...then that weapon will be taken from them"


Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:02 pm
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OhShoot! wrote:
SurfPerch wrote:
TechnoWeenie wrote:
Disparity of force.

Just because you only shoot one person doesn't mean 3 aren't trying to 'attack'...


If Ashli would make it through the window before she was shot - he'd face a single unarmed petit woman who did not state any intentions to threat anybody's life with the rest still behind closed door as chokepoint where trespassers would need to make it through high narrow broken window one by one. Petit woman was the only one in a group who felt she can make it. That's not 1) a threat to life 2) the threat is not imminent and 3)it was avoidable - he could just retreat into the chamber from lobby - or into a bathroom where he could leave his gun again. Or he could arrest her right there at the door for a trespass. To claim "disparity of force" he'd need to let several people through the window first. Nothing of that happened and Ashli fell back off the window on her side of the door. She did not even made beyond the door to threat anybody (imminence)...

Devil's advocate: How did the officer know that she wasn't carrying a bomb? Members of Congress were inside that room.


He probably did not. Is that the reason to kill a trespasser? What if the bomb was carried by somebody in her group? Could they throw it through the window into Byrd's noggin' in response to Ashli's killing? What would that accomplish? What happened to "imminence"? Are we killing anybody for being a "potential threat"? Will Capitol Police patrol our cities and kill everybody "just in case" they might carry a bomb in their direction - or because they are suspected Trump supporters, "white supremacists" etc.? Insanity...

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Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.”

Ronald Reagan Oct. 27, 1964


Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:02 pm
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OhShoot! wrote:
SurfPerch wrote:
TechnoWeenie wrote:
Disparity of force.

Just because you only shoot one person doesn't mean 3 aren't trying to 'attack'...


If Ashli would make it through the window before she was shot - he'd face a single unarmed petit woman who did not state any intentions to threat anybody's life with the rest still behind closed door as chokepoint where trespassers would need to make it through high narrow broken window one by one. Petit woman was the only one in a group who felt she can make it. That's not 1) a threat to life 2) the threat is not imminent and 3)it was avoidable - he could just retreat into the chamber from lobby - or into a bathroom where he could leave his gun again. Or he could arrest her right there at the door for a trespass. To claim "disparity of force" he'd need to let several people through the window first. Nothing of that happened and Ashli fell back off the window on her side of the door. She did not even made beyond the door to threat anybody (imminence)...

Devil's advocate: How did the officer know that she wasn't carrying a bomb? Members of Congress were inside that room.


Why would the officers all along the way, up the various levels and staircases, and those standing just behind her allow her such proximity and to climb into the window if they thought she might be carrying a bomb?

The whole affair stinks like a set-up.

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Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:04 pm
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jukk0u wrote:
OhShoot! wrote:
SurfPerch wrote:
TechnoWeenie wrote:
Disparity of force.

Just because you only shoot one person doesn't mean 3 aren't trying to 'attack'...


If Ashli would make it through the window before she was shot - he'd face a single unarmed petit woman who did not state any intentions to threat anybody's life with the rest still behind closed door as chokepoint where trespassers would need to make it through high narrow broken window one by one. Petit woman was the only one in a group who felt she can make it. That's not 1) a threat to life 2) the threat is not imminent and 3)it was avoidable - he could just retreat into the chamber from lobby - or into a bathroom where he could leave his gun again. Or he could arrest her right there at the door for a trespass. To claim "disparity of force" he'd need to let several people through the window first. Nothing of that happened and Ashli fell back off the window on her side of the door. She did not even made beyond the door to threat anybody (imminence)...

Devil's advocate: How did the officer know that she wasn't carrying a bomb? Members of Congress were inside that room.


Why would the officers all along the way, up the various levels and staircases, and those standing just behind her allow her such proximity and to climb into the window if they thought she might be carrying a bomb?

The whole affair stinks like a set-up.

Where were these officers you speak of while the mob was breaking down the door and window through which Ashli tried climbing? I could clearly see the officer holding the gun on the mob while they broke the door down. It wasn't a surprise that the officer was armed and ready to shoot.

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Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:28 pm
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