Looking for info about 7.62 x 39 frangible bullets????

[dougja]

Can anyone share some knowledge about 7.62 x 39 frangible bullets ? They are approximately 106 grains and about .312" in diameter.
I am not sure what they are made out of....they don't attract a magnet.
A google search didn't give me any answers.
I would assume these would be good for indoor shooting of the AK-47?
I'm mainly looking for information about the usefulness and purpose of this bullet. I personally won't be reloading them but have 2,000 on hand from a speculative purchase with the intent to re-sell.
Thanks in advance for a little education.

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[MadPick]

Those are really odd-looking; they don't look like any of the 7.62x39 frangibles I found online. With that really blunt tip, I'm skeptical that they would feed in an AK.

[MadPick]

Sorry, Doug . . . I just did a bunch of searching, and couldn't find anything useful.

They kinda-sorta look similar to these 9mm bullets: http://www.usreloads.com/Cesaroni-9mm-Luger-100-Grain-Bullets.
And they kinda-sorta look similar to the M1917 incendiary bullet: http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=14049&view=previous.

But, I'm sure they're not either of those. But that's the closest I found.

Are they made of metal? Or wood, or plastic? It might be interesting to cut one open.

With your asbestos gloves, of course . . . y'know, in case they really are the M1917.

[dougja]

"Are they made of metal? Or wood, or plastic? It might be interesting to cut one open"

I cut one open but nothing magical happened. They appear to be made from some type of resin (plastic). I cut the first piece with a harbor freight mini circular saw and then cut it again with a few firm whacks of a hammer and knife.

Edit: there may be some ground copper in the mix of the resin material.

Last edited by dougja on Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[toys in the toybox]

several of the frangibles ive looked at seem to be made of something like pressed granular copper, brass or bronze

[bhpdrew]

Some are pressed copper and tin. Others are wood. Run away

[RusoArmo]

Paging Badclam, Badclam please report to AK ammo discussion.

[Bill Starks]

when I worked at Champion we looked into getting some 7.62x39 frangible to shoot at the indoor range. The cost was too great for the average guy to want them to shoot (at the time we were looking at almost $60 per box of 20rds). They shoot really well, fed into all of the rifles we tested.
The ones we found were compressed copper and brass powder.

[dougja]

For those that want to follow me down this rabbit hole....

I can add a few details that I just learned today.
The bullets are pulled from ammo lots that are marked "PMC" "LONGBOW" & "100 grain"

What follows is a cut and paste from the internet that I believe was written several years ago, perhaps as early as 2003......

"This year, PMC introduced a line of non-toxic ammunition and components called PMC Green. It is available in nine calibers--two rifle and seven pistol--and features Longbow non-toxic frangible bullets and non-toxic heavy metal-free primers.

According to PMC, the ammunition contains no materials to prematurely wear out a firearm's barrel such as titanium or iron, and firing the round will actually clean the gun's barrel. PMC Green contains no heavy metals that are potentially a health risk, as it is made up of 93-percent copper and 7-percent polymer.

PMC Green is also completely frangible. It shatters upon impact with any material harder than itself. It is designed for use in training and sensitive environments where ricochets and over penetration are not acceptable.

Completely frangible ammunition means women (written in a womens blog) who want to train in conditions that simulate real-world scenarios will be able to practice shooting metal targets at distances less than the 15 feet most ranges require for safety. The frangible ammo disintegrates on target, meaning there is no back splash or ricochets to harm the shooter or other bystanders. "


I have written PMC requesting a spec sheet and a question of when this bullet type, "longbow", was produced and dis-continued. I will be surprised if they reply but it was worth a try.

[MadPick]

Interesting development....

Doug, the article you quoted said that PMC Green used Longbow bullets. It also looks like Longbow made their own ammo, and PMC was the distributor per a post here:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/177883_.html

Here's some Longbow 9mm:
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=3528

And here's some Longbow .308, which looks a lot like your bullets:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=384443941



I'm still really skeptical that those would feed reliably in an AK, though.

[dougja]

Thanks Steve, those are good links.
I got a return email from PMC that basically said the bullets/ammo date back to when El Dorado Cartridge Co. of Nevada owned the PMC name. Long and short is he didn't have any records from those years, so no specifications.
Thanks for your interest and help.

[dougja]

I finally got around to loading and shooting these frangibles. Using 3 reloading manuals, google and a few crossed fingers and toes I proceeded to build some test rounds. These were going to be shot thru an SKS.
I used Mil Surplus powder WC680 which uses load data of Accurate 1680. I started my loads at 17 grains, 17.5, 18, 18.5, 19 and 19.5 The bullet got seated to 2.200" which is the max. length. I expected a soft shooting load but hopefully enough charge to avoid a squib. The first trial of 17 grains made me happy that 1.) the gun didn't blow up, 2.) no squib and 3.) good ejection and 4.) good cycling. It was a soft load so it made me feel very comfortable shooting the increased loads.

Long story short, I probably could have safely used the Hornady load data which starts at 19.3 grains for a 110 gr. FMJ
I also shot some factory Winchester ammo that was loaded significantly hotter than my loads up to 19.5 gr.

I don't have a chronograph. That sure would have helped. In terms of accuracy , I was shooting at 25 and 50 yards, iron sights with my SKS. I'm not a very good shot but they landed on the target as good as any other day.

This is also my first time reloading for the 7.62 x 39. The easy way would have been to buy more steel cased imported ammo.

Ok, this thread will die for lack of interest or most certainly by the dire situation expected to happen 2 days, 16 hours from now (see countdown clock). Good luck, see you on the other side.

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[MadPick]

Good work! Has your heartbeat slowed down to normal yet?

Did you load multiple rounds in the gun? Did they feed OK?

[dougja]

Good work! Has your heartbeat slowed down to normal yet?

Did you load multiple rounds in the gun? Did they feed OK?

I was very nervous setting up for the first round. Thankfully the guy next to me was packing up to leave so I waited for him to clear just in case I had a dangerous or embarrassing moment on the first trigger pull. I probably flinched pretty good that first round.
I did create 3 to 6 rounds of each sample. The max I probably had in the magazine was 6, sometimes just 2 or 3.
I had one round that jammed on feeding. I had to forcibly pull the bolt back to get it to eject. Then like an idiot I tried to feed it again as if it would magically feed the second time. Didn't happen. I ejected it with force, took it home and measured it but the length was within tolerance. I'm not sure why that round didn't feed. That was 1 out of about 30.

[MadPick]

I probably flinched pretty good that first round.

Been there.

Done that.