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http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/a ... 84/?no-ist

I was having a discussion with somebody who maintained that the Pilgrims were bastions of religious freedom and liberty... while the grade school mythology may fly for little Johnny and Suzie learning about Thanksgiving (the modern version is rooted in Lincoln's proclamations, not the Pilgrims, but that's another story). for anyone over the age of 8, there is a frank and difficult pill to swallow about certain aspects of our national mythology.

Thanks for posting this, very interesting!

a few things in the article where I think the author is over-reaching, but all in all seems to be well written.

I need to read it again, I was mostly focused on the pre revolutionary war parts at the time. What parts do you see as a reach?

kf7mjf wrote:America's True History of Religious Tolerance. . . I was mostly focused on the pre revolutionary war parts . . . .

Pre-revolutionary war America.

DocNugent wrote:

kf7mjf wrote:America's True History of Religious Tolerance. . . I was mostly focused on the pre revolutionary war parts . . . .

Pre-revolutionary war America.

It was weird post revolution too yano.

kf7mjf wrote:I need to read it again, I was mostly focused on the pre revolutionary war parts at the time. What parts do you see as a reach?

some of the conclusions and assertions. I forget the exact wording in the article, but something along the lines of "what is clear is the framers intended for this to be a secular nation". I didn't see any academic references to such assertions, rather an opinion extrapolated by the author from previous quotes and things.

Well it's a popular article, not an academic one. The fact the federal government was barred from funding or establishing a church and prohibited from having religious qualifications to hold office shows that they did not intend to mingle government and religion like many European nations did.

I am French Canadian.

i got no pilgrim guilt.

We came for the beavers, both kinds, and the maple syrup.

We brought bacon, whiskey, blankets, and cigars for trading.

Both beavers got traded for our stuff, and a lot of whiskey got consumed.

Good times.

Le voyageur

kf7mjf wrote:Well it's a popular article, not an academic one. The fact the federal government was barred from funding or establishing a church and prohibited from having religious qualifications to hold office shows that they did not intend to mingle government and religion like many European nations did.

True, but even if there are no religious qualifications to hold office, many of the early figures in our country were Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Diest, etc. Each man would naturally take his beliefs that he heald dear into consideration while holding office and making decision (both right and wrong). To say that they intended a "secular" nation in it's modern definition I think is to say that they wanted a Godless nation, which I think is a stretch. A more accurate phrase might be "a non-denominational" nation.

There was another thread here about how words matter, and definitions can change. I suppose my point is that the author seems...to me at least...to convey conclusions such as that one using words which may not hold the same meaning to the reader as it may have held to someone in 1776.

I considered that. But in the context of creating a non religious government, they did in fact create a secular republic. Consider the language of the treaty of Tripoli for an example of the US proclaiming itself not to be a Christian nation.

Anyone that has done more than a quick overview of US History knows that there has not been religious tolerance in this country. To be honest, there never will be true religious tolerance because the mores of a society govern religion just as much as they do any other aspect of that society. Certain things that are considered normal in other religions, like polygamy, child brides or animal sacrifice are frowned upon in the US and probably will be for some time. Likewise the mores of the majority in the 18th and 19th centuries influenced how different religious groups were treated. My family came from Ireland, most during the Potato Famine and most were Catholic. I'm sure many of them dealt with the 'No Irish need apply' signs. This was as much a reflection on the religious beliefs of the Irish that came to the US as the fear of immigration.

But the US was relatively unique in that there was a codification of the right to freedom of religion and separation of Church and State specifically written into the US Constitution. For comparison look at England, in which the Anglican Church was considered the only legitimate religious organization or places like France and Spain where Catholicism was the state religion. Most if not all European countries at that time had a state religion and for the United States to depart from this was unheard of. Yes repression occured but it wasn't officially sanctioned by the government. Unofficially yes it happened but religious freedom was something that the US had more of than any other country at that time. It took 25-150 years before other European countries followed suit.

White, Irish immigrant here.
I know more about the United States that the vast majority of naturally born U.S. citizens.
Try being an Irish Catholic and walking into the "wrong" neighborhood as a kid, or as an adult....

DocNugent wrote:

kf7mjf wrote:America's True History of Religious Tolerance. . . I was mostly focused on the pre revolutionary war parts . . . .

Pre-revolutionary war America.

Yeah, "America" actually existed prior to the Revolutionary War. Only after the Constitution was signed did the "United States of" get added.


FWIW, there's never been a time in US history where religious tolerance was universal. It all depended on the times and where you lived in the US.

Ever wonder why the Jews are so concentrated in NY and Chicago and not in the South? Same for most muslim communities.

Maybe there's freedom of religion as far as government is concerned but try being anything other than a "Good Southern Baptist" in some states and enjoying life without harassment.