Ponder also that currently general relativity and quantum theory are each widely accepted as 'true' in a generalized sense and yet they are utterly incompatible with each other.

It only takes one conflicting measurement to destroy a theory. The above does such to both.

There is no such thing as scientific certainty.

Sporkboy said it well, “There is no such thing as scientific certainty.” All of our truth is derived from what we study and how we interpret the data. Mike may look at how I interpret something as religious but I look at it as trying to fit the data I have studied into my worldview and what I have learned in the past. I can be totally off base and that is why I like discussions to see what other people think. I can look at physics, chemistry, biology, geology, or theology but whichever I am most interested in is where I will spend my time. I am ignorant of a lot more than I am knowledgeable on. Physics is an interest but the math is beyond my expertise and training.

There are several thousand prophecies in the Bible and some are very specific. I could list the OT prophecies of Israel being dispersed (Diaspora) going back to Moses before Israel was a nation and go through other prophecy which states the length of time until it is reformed (1948). I could verify the dating of the prophecy to at least 100 BCE from the Dead Sea Scrolls. You can take Ezekiel’s prophecy and knowing Leviticus, calculate the span (adjusting for solar/lunar year variations). It comes out to 1948, which is just one piece of data. Can I be certain, no. I have to look at enough data until I am comfortable with my assumptions. My main point here was to lay out data and see what people think so anyone interested can decide if it is worth their time to investigate themselves. I can always change my mind with different data. I have books by scientists who can argue for a young Earth. I have one from Dr. John Morris who has a BS in Civil Engineering and a Masters and PhD in Geological Engineering. I have not studied it enough to be certain but I assume he has a good foundation in Geology. I took Geology but only one year. I have to weigh the data with a persons possible bias but we need to do that in anything we study. Opinions are like…..

As stated before, this thread started due to some posts about belief in Biblical doctrine as going against science (or as it was posted SCIENCE).

On Mike’s alien angle, I could give different interpretations based on many theories. I’ve heard all kinds over the years. I read research on the UFO phenomenon for many years but I still don’t have enough to go on. As a kid in 5th grade, I was with my brother (8th grade) and my mom’s boyfriend out in the Nevada desert. We lived outside Winnemucca. We saw 3 different colored lights (far away so hard to tell what they were). They were moving rapidly in different directions but staying close to each other. They appeared to be above a mountain range that we knew to be around 100 miles away. They were making rapid stop/start high degree maneuvers at speeds that would not seem possible. We all saw them so it wasn’t a hallucination. I grew up on Air Force bases and knew what jets can do and this seemed impossible in the early 70’s. How do I interpret that data? I am missing too much information to determine the truth but I could speculate: alien craft moving outside our time so they can change direction at angles of 90-180 degrees instantaneously and just appear to be moving quickly, alien craft in a gravity well, military craft that can do the same, a mass hallucination of the three of us because we were drugged? Or, just file it away as “unknown”.

Later in life I read Sitchin and his series on the Annunaki, Nibiru, etc. On further research his “translation” of the Sumerian Cuneiform appeared suspect. Again, I filed it away as unknown. Many scholars wrote his interpretations were wrong and the documents online did not validate his claims. Some of the many theories are; actual beings from our dimension coming across space to abduct humans, mutilate cattle, save the planet, eat us for dinner, etc. Some think they are interdimensional so can move outside our space/time and only appear to be moving faster than possible or they blink in and out of our vision. This theory makes more sense if you believe the testimony of witnesses (without evidence to show these maneuvers are physically possible without killing inhabitants). Researchers like Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek wrote on the interdimensional hypothesis. There is the hypothesis they could be what the Bible calls demons. When we use terms, we can bias people to either agree or disagree based on their aversions.

Even if we had contact we still have to decide where it is from, how it got here, do we believe the beings when they state their case, is it a scam, do they have a book called “to serve man”? If we can verify a valid propulsion system and enough life support to get these beings from there to here, we at least have something to start with. Do we understand their physiology? Is it similar to ours? If so, how does that conflict or confirm random evolutionary changes? Just believing their claim to be advanced beings from Orion does not make it true. Until we have some physical beings to evaluate, it is all just speculation.

I should restate, like Mike said, my point about Wikipedia. No problem posting from it since it can be a good summary of information for further investigation as long as we know how it is created and not use it as evidence to support an argument. I just prefer citations to books, articles/papers if we are arguing a point so it is faster to verify. We can check out the validity for ourselves if we aren’t sure. Speculation is good as long as we know it will include our own bias.

My Law Professor said basicly the same thing concerning law. There is only one thing positive in law (science), and that is Nothing is positive in law (Science)

If you extend this out, we could just say as a universal law that nothing is certain. The reason we have discussions about so many subjects is that nothing is certain. We come to our own conclusions after looking at all the facts we are able to obtain in the time constraints we have and our interest in any subject. We also have to decide if the facts we find pass some sort of test in our own mind as to how true they are. I am pretty sure Bill and Hillary are loathsome criminals but I am just going by the decades of reporting I have seen and all of the books I have read. I could have been led astray by someones bias.

Perhaps this got too technical or philosophy and theology are not in vogue. Maybe some prophecy will be more interesting.

I spent some of my time since last summer writing a paper for my family and friends to send out around Xmas and it turned out to be a small book. I'll throw out just one prophecy pulled from that along with calculations. It only requires a little math, familiarity with the books of the Old Testament, how different calendars are related, and a Bible. I make no references to any commentaries other than the Book you can find just about anywhere (or look up the verses online). I used the NIV here for the ease of translation to English but for study, it's best to go to sources written in the original languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, etc). Also historical texts can be studied but for some brevity I am leaving out a large amount of the history of Israel, both full and divided. Although there are thousands of prophecies and there is abundant commentary on the ones which have been fulfilled, there are a smaller number that are the most compelling to me. Only one is listed here.

What we really need to boil it down to is a prophecy that we can verify without another person’s aid. It must be validated to have been written thousands of years ago. It must also have come true beyond a reasonable doubt, as we would look at evidence in a trial. If we confirm this prophecy by calculating a time period, that is better for our case.

The books of the Old Testament (OT) have been verified by historians and archaeologists to be written earlier than 100BCE. We have many confirmed documents and fragments from ancient nations and historians. This doesn’t mean they are not older but that they cannot be younger. Also, both Israel and Judah kept good historical records which were well known by the surrounding nations and written of in their chronicles (Babylon, Medea, Persia, Macedonia, Assyria, etc.).

The Dead Sea Scrolls have both full OT books and fragments of OT books. Dates are well established for the DSS. The OT book of Ezekiel can be verified to early BC with extant copies found in the mid 1900’s. There are prophecies of the rebirth of the full nation of Israel after its total destruction and Diaspora. Many more prophecies (such the "Dry bones" prophecy) speak to this as well.

One specific prophecy can be seen to hold the actual year when Israel would be reborn after its full destruction and dispersal (Diaspora) of the people to all nations. This Diaspora was caused by Rome’s total destruction of Jerusalem, the Temple, and the remnant of the nation in 70AD. We can calculate the year this prophecy would be fulfilled because we know it starts at the Babylonian empire conquering Judah and taking people captive. The northern kingdom of Israel had long ago been conquered by the Assyrians. The prophecy gives us the means to calculate the number of years to the fulfillment if we understand the Bible and have studied the different books. The punishment has been well established to have started when Babylon took Judah captive (the 70 years of captivity mentioned many times).

Ezekiel 4: a Prophecy concerning the Rebirth of the full nation of Israel

This is one of the prophecies that has multiple meanings but I am only concerned with the punishment fulfillment. There are various ways to calculate some prophecies of the Bible so they can refer to multiple events. There are other calculations for these Ezekiel prophecies that relate to the 70 AD destruction as well but it would take a lot more space. Ezekiel more than likely prophesied this at the time when Judah was under the Babylonian Captivity and the northern kingdom of Israel had long before been taken into captivity. The Babylonian Captivity of Judah began in 606 BC.

In this prophecy Ezekiel is to symbolically act out 430 years of punishment for the sins of both the northern kingdom of Israel and the southern kingdom of Judah.

Ezekiel 4:3-7 (NIV)

“Then take an iron pan, place it as an iron wall between you and the city and turn your face toward it. It will be under siege, and you shall besiege it. This will be a sign to the people of Israel.

“Then lie on your left side and put the sin of the people of Israel upon yourself. You are to bear their sin for the number of days you lie on your side. I have assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin. So for 390 days you will bear the sin of the people of Israel.

“After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the people of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year. Turn your face toward the siege of Jerusalem and with bared arm prophesy against her.”

Ezekiel prophesied that God would punish the Israelites base on the amount of time of their iniquity. This was a total of 430 years (390 for Israel and 40 for Judah). Israel split off from Judah when they turned their back on God's king of the Davidic line. The two kingdoms as a whole were to be punished for the amount of time they had transgressed.

The punishment was to fit the transgression. The punishment length would be a time span when there were no people in the land as a full nation after the taking of Judah. The dates of the Babylonian Captivity are in Babylonian chronicles that are extant and were written of by historians as well as in chronicles of various other ancient kingdoms.

Babylon was conquered by Cyrus in 539 BC. Cyrus began allowing the people to return in 536 BC, although not many did. It had been 70 years of exile since the start of captivity (606 BC). These 70 years of captivity were prophesied by Jeremiah. However, it was a sin to God that most of the people remained in pagan Babylon and other areas. For this reason, the remaining 360 years would be extended by a multiple of 7 due to Levitical law:

Leviticus 26:18 “If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over.”

The 360 remaining years multiplied by 7 equals 2520 years. However, Biblical (prophetic years) are 360 days long as is well documented in the Bible and noted by Biblical scholars. To conform to our solar calendar dating, we must make an adjustment for the discrepancy from solar to Biblical years. A solar year has 365.25 days so the factor is 0.98562628. Multiply 2520 biblical years by 0.9856 and you get 2483.8.

Note: There is no year zero so there was only one year between Passover 1 BC and Passover 1 AD. We need to adjust one year for this. As an example: from 5 BC say we want to go 10 years into the future. We think that would be 5 AD, however, if you count ten years, you actually reach 6 AD. Assume we are in December 5 BC: 5 BC-4 BC (one year), 4 BC-3BC (two years), 3 BC-2 BC (three years), 2 BC-1 BC (four years), 1 BC-1 AD (five years), 1 AD-2 AD (six years), 2 AD-3 AD (seven years), 3 AD-4 AD (8 years), 4 AD-5 AD (9 years), 5 AD-6 AD (10 years). Ten years from December 5 BC takes us to December 6 AD.

The end of the Babylonian captivity was in the month of Nisan of 536 BC (by historian and Biblical accounts). We count off the next stage after the 70 year captivity to get to the end of punishment. The end of punishment would mean the people are able to finally return to their promised land and reform their nation as one. The Bible speaks many times on this subject of rebirth.

For ease, I will round the year to 536 BC (drop the partial year from Nisan) as years are all we are concerned with. Thus the calculation for the rebirth is 2483.8 – 536 = 1947.8 (minus some fractional value). However, we have to adjust for no zero year so we move one year ahead in our solar calendar system and get 1948.8 (again minus some number of months).

Israel was reborn as a nation on May 14, 1948.

I hesitated to respond for fear of appearing to be a contrarian.

I find prophecy and prophecy fulfillment interesting, but mostly for other than believing in them.

Many people find the evidence presented by the laryngeal nerve to be unimpressive... and I am utterly stumped by that response (although I am also open to discovering other reasons for its circuitous path through the body.)
Others find prophecy to be specific, clear, and indicative of a supernatural being. That is another thing that I am stumped by.
Interpreting prophecy in the way that it is done above looks like a version of numerology to me. For one thing, a year is not 360 days. The fact that that is given as a biblical year indicates that the people responsible for writing those portions, editing later, and including in the canon even later, interpreting etc.... did not know about anything beyond what was available to a fairly primitive culture that hadn't progressed much beyond an approximate count of days in a year.
They didn't know about mental disorders, bacteria, viruses, or anything microscopic. They thought that there was a firmament above and around the earth that at alternate times was a crystal sphere and a great body of water. They thought that the stars were small objects either attached on the inside or draped on the outside of the firmament.
Some of the most specific prophecies in the bible concern the 2nd coming of Jesus, and it takes a monumental effort in word and meaning twisting to conclude that the words of Jesus himself were an accurate prophecy in any sense. They were wrong.
One may switch to Nostradamus and be entertained by highly detailed yet vague (or interpretable) meanings. Many seem to predict Hitler, the Cold War, helicopters, ICBMs, etc.

I don't mean to be a contrarian- I am simply pointing out that a clever interpretation is still simply that. I believe that the Mayans made predictions that were in some ways quite convincing. Religious cults make outlandish predictions all the time. When they are vague enough they "survive" long enough to have something happen that can be roughly interpreted to be a match, and voila! Proof!

Specific and timely prophecies (or predictions) are very rarely met with success and acclaim. Normally we call them guesses or lucky, or just predictions.

We don't find faith healers working in hospitals because they are frauds (mostly) and deluded (the rest.) We don't find millionaire prophets who chose the winning numbers through divination because they can't.
A counter-argument could be that prophets and those doing God's work don't need money. The ratio of frauds to truly devout is debatable, but one thing in common is that they almost all ask for more money to continue doing what they see as God's work. The requests are often presented as immediate and dire needs, for which the sucker helpful donor will be rewarded in some undetermined manner. "Give me your money and trust and God will reward you!"
The evangelism movement is a shame and a stain on organized religion in general, and those who solicit money to support their own lives while doing "God's work"- I despise them for their fraud.

The 360 day calendar for the Bible is well established and was used separately from the standard Hebrew calendar. There are long expositions that describe all of the differing calendar's and why they were used. It has nothing to do with being primitive, there are specific Biblical reasons for the 360 day calendar being different from the standard Hebrew lunar calendar used later but they can easily be found online so I won't spend time explaining it. It is explained by studying Genesis so I'm not sure how you assume it was added at a later time. Portions of Genesis are in ancient writings (BCE periods). However, this would assume you use the Biblical reasoning in order to understand why prophecy is in the context of the Biblical year and not the 354 day Hebrew or our 365 day solar calendar.

I have no problem with a contrarian view but claiming this is similar to Nostradamus is a stretch, in my opinion. Nostradamus does not use specific instances with a known result and does not include years. I studied John Hogue's Nostradamus books long before I studied Biblical prophecy and I found nothing that comes close to what I have studied in the Bible. I was never convinced about any of the Nostradamus text. Unless you have studied both the Bible and Nostradamus I can, however, see why you may think that.

There are thousands of prophecies besides this one that I listed. This one was exact and it does not use numerology. Numerology assumes numbers have specific meanings; what type of a personality a person has based on their birth date, etc. This is a calculation. There is a prophecy for Jesus that is also calculated but if I used that, people would disregard the calculation based on their belief that Jesus was not a real person or perhaps that the Gospels were incorrect. I used the Israel prophecy because it points directly to 1948, which can be verified.

We could also bring up the Torah Codes that have had peer reviewed statistical papers published. It was also verified by a DOD Cryptographer as being statistically valid.

My intention in the thread was to give examples of why Christians believe as they do to counter what a few people were saying in other threads that go closed. When I was asked to start this thread, I was hoping some of those people would try to bring their arguments here so we could have a more civil debate. It seems those people either did not have any standing to debate or just wanted to close down threads.

I really am not sure if anyone is interested in these topics. I was hoping there would be some ideas put out that we could go into besides the few I have listed but it seems it is mainly the two of us. I could go into a lot more prophecy that is specific but it would probably not be worth the time it takes for me to do the research and make it coherent.

Prophecy was what convinced Isaac Newton that he was not wasting his time working more on Biblical research than science. He wrote that he believed there was a code in the Bible and spent much of his time searching for it. He believed the prophecies that had been fulfilled and wrote about both Daniel and Revelation. I am no Newton but the statements made in other threads about a belief in Christianity being anti-science was wrong. I hope I have at least laid that argument to rest.

As a parting statement, I will however list a few more prophecies on the rebirth of Israel (without any calculations so Numerology be damned). Forgive me for leaving out the entire context in these verses but anyone interested can easily find a Bible to see the other passages.

Isaiah 66:7 (NIV) “Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.”

Extant copies of Isaiah are dated to at least the 2nd century BCE from the Dead Sea Scrolls so this is not edited later in history. Even if it were edited later, it would have been well before Israel/Zion was reborn in 1948.

It is fairly evident that the prophecy is saying Israel would be birthed in one day. If we look at the history of Israel in the 40's, it did become a nation in one day. Israel declared themselves a nation on May 14, 1948 and was a full nation the same day, with the United States recognizing them as a nation that day. The British Mandate expired that day as well.

From History.com:

"On May 14, 1948, in Tel Aviv, Jewish Agency Chairman David Ben-Gurion proclaims the State of Israel, establishing the first Jewish state in 2,000 years. In an afternoon ceremony at the Tel Aviv Art Museum, Ben-Gurion pronounced the words “We hereby proclaim the establishment of the Jewish state in Palestine, to be called Israel,” prompting applause and tears from the crowd gathered at the museum. Ben-Gurion became Israel’s first premier.

In the distance, the rumble of guns could be heard from fighting that broke out between Jews and Arabs immediately following the British army withdrawal earlier that day. Egypt launched an air assault against Israel that evening. Despite a blackout in Tel Aviv–and the expected Arab invasion–Jews joyously celebrated the birth of their new nation, especially after word was received that the United States had recognized the Jewish state. At midnight, the State of Israel officially came into being upon termination of the British mandate in Palestine."

Did Nostradamus have a specific prophecy such as this? Now we have a prophecy that has calculated the year Israel would be reformed, from several thousand years earlier. We have another that has stated it would be reformed in one day. What of the part about the birth of the nation before the labor pains? We all understand labor pains come before birth. What Isaiah states is the Israel will be a nation before (or at least at the time of birth). This is just what happened. Israel is declared a nation the same day as the war starts.

I ask for references to any other nation that was started such as this and declared a nation in the same day that did not exist without having a war, then a war started the day of declaration, and had not only one but numerous specific references to the fact several thousand years earlier in well documented scrolls. Perhaps Isaiah was just guessing but this seems unlikely. Why would his guess be specific and accurate? Why would the prior calculated prophecy from another text point to the correct year?

More prophecies of Ezekiel about the final rebirth of Israel. These are the "Dry Bones" prophecies. Ezekiel is seeing them as dry bones because Israel has been dispersed (Diaspora) for millennia (as numerous commentaries have stated).

Ezekiel 37:11 (NIV) – “Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land.”

Ezekiel 37:24 (NIV) – “For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land… Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors… I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt…”

Once again, reference the people of a nation that had been dispersed for two millennia yet had been prophesied to return to their original homeland and it happened. These are just a small portion of the prophecies that came true. Is it just random chance that the Hebrew people were scattered for 2000 years and did not become genetically wiped out by inter-marriage and then randomly came back to their original homeland? What is the probability? What is the probability they would also have prophecies stating these things?

Deuteronomy also speaks of the Diaspora and return to the land:

Deuteronomy 30:1 (NIV) – “When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.”

I'll go ahead and just list one last prophecy that you can calculate to the timing of the Messiah but I won't list the calculations. Maybe someone would like to give it a shot to see if they can figure it out. I will also list other passages from Nehemiah and Luke that you need to know in order to find the start date and when the end date would be (Luke). You need to know that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist just after John began preaching and then Jesus started his 3 year ministry. Searching historical documents will give the year to start as told by Nehemiah **EDIT: I had an error here. It should be Artaxerxes as in Nehemiah and not Cyrus.** I put in bold the important sections for the first calculation. Daniel also speaks to a further unfulfilled prophecy.

Daniel 9:24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ “’

Nehemiah 2: “And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king”

Luke 3: "Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene, Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness. And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias {Isaiah} the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight."

MorrisWR,
I actually enjoy reading what you and a couple others that obviously have a higher level of education on the subject matter than I do, I don't, at all, not remotely.....
More times than not, I haven't gotta clue what the hell reference you guys might be referring to, but the reading is insightful.

I'm on opposite end of spectrum and as said before, bounce between the ideas of agnostic, and athiesim.
I tend to fall back on scientifically proven, or what my interpretation, or faith, in some hypothesis, than having what my perception of blind faith and following is.

I do not have much input on this thread, as not only do I not have much viable input to the conversation, but I'm also trying to absorb another's thought.

I really lost any abilities to study many years back when I still had patience, and inclination, anymore I just want to survive to retirement. Plus the minds abilities to recall and reference even a 1/16 of what you all seem to retain, isn't there.

Don't give up this thread, I do read this, just have absolutely no intelligent point to add!

None of my interpretations are meant to offend. If I have used logical fallacies (and I am sure that I have! ) please do point them out to me so that I can come to find a more accurate and truthful position. If I have offended with my blunt words, please accept my apologies as a poor speaker/writer as this is not my intention. This is a terrifically complicated subject and long held positions on any side of this debate are gripped tightly and defended often without attempting hard enough to understand the opposing points of view.



Good morning Morris. I appreciate it kind sir! It was recognized that you had put time and effort into the closed/trashed threads. Your arguments (discussions) are not based on "god created hell for people who ask questions like that" type of arguments, which is damned refreshing. haha
However, the fact that some of those who you disagreed with in the other thread haven't posted in here is absolutely NOT an indication that their viewpoints are not valid or just wanted to close threads. As a matter of fact, it was not the person(s) who disagreed with you who said things that resulted in that thread being closed. Not even close.


My wording may have been poor to get the "added later" that you thought I said. What I actually said was "The fact that that is given as a biblical year indicates that the people responsible for writing those portions, editing later, and including in the canon even later, interpreting etc.." I was referring to the translations, re-writings and selections made at the councils who decided on what Christianity meant to them at that time (like the First Council of Nicea ...) I hope that explains what I was trying to get across. I didn't say or mean to imply that the 360 day year was added to the bible at a later time.

We're left with the fact that a year is not 360 days, but actually 365.25 days (365 days, 5 hours, 55 minutes, 12 seconds, or 365.24667 days.) Even the # of seconds is approximate because it's not a clock. It is a based on a spinning ball of space material following a curved space-time path around another ball of space stuff, that is following another curved space-time path around the center of mass of the galaxy, all components being influenced more or less by other balls of space stuff.
But one thing that we can say for sure is that a year is not 360 days. Approximations 5 days off result in catastrophic crop failures and the resetting of calendars because it is wrong.
This basic fact of the structure of the solar system was never included in the bible or any other ancient book because they didn't know.
The bible specifically describes the structure and the universe in Genesis, and it is wrong. It requires monstrous interpretations and reinterpretations and fairly wild assumptions to try to mold the descriptions and time frames into our understanding of why the world and the cosmos are the way they are. The people who were taught the structure of the universe based on the biblical description were 100% wrong, and actually murdered many people who had the temerity to describe it differently. Again, it requires reinterpretation and a strange forgetfulness of what the wrong teachings of the bible have caused through its history to fall into line with our new and (currently) gentle acceptance of our scientific understanding.



It is not a stretch in the slightest to me. Both are vague and open to interpretation. You are saying things about Nostradamus ("does not use specific instances with a known result and does not include years") that also apply to biblical predictions. Both are subject to interpretation, and both can be found to seem to describe events that can be made to fit with things that happen afterwards after enough time passes.
This is a logical fallacy. I am able to see, understand and describe similarities without having devoted my life to study of either of these books. But I was raised with the bible, and have read it with quite fervent interest and desire for knowledge more than once. What I may think is not based on a lack of familiarity with either book. It is a logical fallacy to assume your own familiarity with a topic is superior to someone else's simply because your interpretation is different. It is a common logical fallacy also... and I don't claim to be free of logical fallacies myself.



Many of your definitions seem to be cherry-picked to fit your argument rather than to be a widely applicable usage. Numerology is not assuming that numbers have specific meanings. Numerology is not about what type of a personality a person has based on their birth date, etc.
Numerology is " the branch of knowledge that deals with the occult significance of numbers."
Another word that will elicit howls- Occult.



Many in Christianity don't like the word "occult" to be associated with their belief system, but you can pick several of the many definitions to see that it is in fact applicable.

Your calculation is based on numerology which is an occult practice. If you disagree with this, please review the meaning of the word occult and the real meaning of numerology, not the cherry picked version that you replied with above. (No offense intended by the use of "cherry pick" or other word choices. I am only working to clear up misunderstandings.)
You can find more specific and more exclusive meanings of each word. I would consider that to be a bit dishonest though, and trying to pin an opposing viewpoint into "wrongness" based on a narrow definition or your personal understanding of a single word tends to discourage a logical discussion.



Please provide a link to a study that you personally have reviewed for scientific validity if possible. I like to know that you have reviewed it and approved it because I respect the way that you think, and don't want to find some crackpot version that you would disavow.
Codes, ciphers and numerology abound in most ancient texts. Codes can be "found" or discovered in modern books and newspapers too, so I want to be comparing apples to apples with you sir.



This is one of the reasons that I usually take some time to answer. I'd prefer to not be the only "science based" responder. I am confident that there are many people who have opinions on this topic...
People who have the "I'm right, you're wrong" viewpoint (from either side) are encouraged by other people who share similar interpretations, and those types of discussions implode or explode in short order. I bristle at personal attacks in any thread, and may be too ready to trash a post that I interpret as such.



Isaac Newton may have been the most brilliant human ever - and that is absolutely no proof or even evidence of his sanity or correct thinking on other topics.
I encourage a read about his life to see how brilliant and nutty he was. Here is one : http://www.biography.com/people/isaac-n ... prominence



Murray, don't get bent out of shape by what was intended as innocent word choices my friend.



Most events occur with a time and date stamp. July 4th 1776 comes to mind.


Because this is a matter of interpretation, that answer is an emphatic yes. I am NOT defending Nostradamus or condemning the biblical prophecies. Both are open to interpretations.



The calculation is based upon several interpretations and a simply mistaken length of a year. I am surprised that this isn't a spotlight on the numerology being used. I believe that it is simply the desire to distance the calculation from a word that has such wide usage... a word that is associated with other occultish practices. Nevertheless, the word "numerology" is the accurate and applicable word here.



A few of your points in the above quote seem obvious in the effort to show the uniqueness of the Nation of Israel... I point out that all births of nations are unique. A nation that was founded on the strength of the Allies after WW2, as a declaration of "This land that did belong to the Palestinians and Jews, and Arabs, et al, and now belongs solely to the Jews as the new Nation of Israel" surely is going to piss off the people who have lived there for many generations. This is not a gripe against Israel at all... I am pointing out that unilateral declarations of statehood have a history of encouraging other disenfranchised inhabitants to pick up guns and shoot at their new overlords. (From their viewpoint... Again, this is a 40,000 foot view.)

Israel was a long time in coming, and took the combined efforts of many people and nations, partially as a result of a desire to fulfill prophecies. Hmmm. It did not happen "in a day" any more than the USA did.





You don't see how these prophecies could be interpreted differently by other people?
Are you able to see how other reasonable people could be unconvinced as to the divinity and accuracy?

Why is this current definition/interpretation the final word? How about how Copernicus, Galileo, Bruno and all other iconoclasts who (it turned out were correct) were speaking on thought and understanding of natural phenomena but were bullied, tortured, imprisoned, threatened and/or murdered for being right?
Why did it take a "Council of Nicaea" to pin down what should and what should not be in the canonical bible? Why did many men over many centuries have to interpret and debate what the meanings of passages in the bible were to mean, and how they were to be "freshly" interpreted by the clergies from their many pulpits?
I could go on with the many "why"s for many pages... The obvious answer to many people is that the bible is the writings of many men/women who believed in supernatural and the occult because science hadn't progressed far enough to explain things like gravity, orbits, nuclear power in the sun and stars, microbiology, and life itself. The gaps in our knowledge (origin of first self-replicating energy eater, the Big Bang or other origin of the cosmos) don't add up to proof of a supernatural being. (ETA: The existence of supernatural phenomena and beings is not proven false either. Nothing I say is meant to imply that.)

I have shied away from biology all of my life Murray, but I am making an effort to fill in that HUGE gap in my understanding so we can chat about that if you're still interested.
Before the scientific revolution life was thought to spontaneously generate from non-living matter (which may be what you were referring to when you said SG had been proven wrong. I was referring to the natural occurrence of the very first self-replicator. Sorry for the late clarification.) Life was thought to be supernatural and have a divine spark by most religious people... Instead, DNA is a complicated (due to size) and simple (due to chemical constituents) molecule that carries the blueprints to build the structures in all living things. Isn't that a rather materialistic thing, and more closely match the view from our eyes? Is there a divine spark in our souls? Is there a divine spark in the souls of your dogs and cats, or of the slug currently wintering over in your compost pile? Does a fruitfly have a soul? If not, why not? If we take a section of the genetic code in DNA responsible for building a human eyeball and insert it into a stretch of DNA used by a fruitfly, do you know what happens?
The fruitfly grows an eye in an odd place....

But it is a fruitfly's eye! This is really profound.

The "code" that is DNA is simple, and the same code is used in all studied living things. We humans share a common ancestor with all other living things... This is the simplest and most reality-based understanding of all the genetic and hereditary data that we have.

None of my interpretations are meant to offend. If I have used logical fallacies (and I am sure that I have! ) please do point them out to me so that I can come to find a more accurate and truthful position. If I have offended with my blunt words, please accept my apologies as a poor speaker/writer as this is not my intention. This is a terrifically complicated subject and long held positions on any side of this debate are gripped tightly and defended often without attempting hard enough to understand the opposing points of view.

Glenn, I know that you know way more about the things that interest you than I know about them.
I am working towards retirement too, but Murray's biological discussions are pushing me to open up the biology books. I've neglected that field of study all my life... but as the gray hair multiplies on my old head I am going to try to at least understand where biology points us.
No one is too old too pick up a book and think about it. (That's an opinion... haha)



Bullshit.

You are using the Bible to prove the Bible and hauling out unsourced claims of DoD experts confirming hidden codes in the Torah and such. There is no debate with that, in fact there are entire industries and subcultures that exist and have for hundreds and thousands of years to prop up the evangelical arguments you are making. Asking people to debate that only will fuel you to keep hauling out stuff from whatever corner of Christian apologia you subscribe to.

In a majority Christian nation, I'm pretty sure there isn't really anyone here who doesn't know why Christians believe as they do. I used to follow with great zeal and faith evangelical Christianity, and used to rely on pretty much the same arguments you make here. If you can't dazzle 'em with truth, dazzle 'em with heavy, constant and self citing claims where it becomes a burden and labor to pick over each one, and each time a point is challenged you go "ah ha! But if you look here...." and the cycle repeats anew, but always depends on the Bible ultimately being both infallible and fully correct, and demands an outsider accept those points, while using arguments from within the book itself that it is true. Or in essence saying "Well the Bible says it is true, and it is true because it says this in the Bible, so it is true, and now let us try to prove itself using itself as proof. Because God or something." And then to keep it rolling, we hint about at hidden codes in the bible (I didn't know that was still a thing, I know it was a big market in the 90's)

You are offering a great glimpse at the inside of the theology of certain Christian sects, but it lacks much value outside of a cultural exercise. What are you trying to prove that hasn't been mainstream for almost two thousand years in Western culture? That Christians believe a certain way, use certain arguments, and make certain points to prove certain claims among themselves and to try and convince others of them?

If you are going to cite specific claims in the Bible, you need to first demonstrate that the Bible is an uncorrupted document. Next you need to demonstrate with some strength the validity of the Bible as an authoritative source. Oh there are certainly real life events in it, but you find that in any ancient mythology and such myths can be a valuable source of information in that regard. But that doesn't prove the theology anymore than any other myth.

If you are trying to bring science to theology, it stops working at some point. It is quite possible to have religious beliefs and ascribe theological notions to science, or to take theological inspiration in science. One could trot out a Muslim and hear similar sounding arguments using their own faith when applied to science, it is pretty interchangeable at that level, pick one religion, toss it on top of a scientist who is content to believe and adjust their interpretation of their holy books to fit what they see in reality, rinse and repeat. So I am really curious what do you bring to the table with theology here? The non believers (or former believers) almost assuredly will not be swayed by your ability to engage in Christian apologia with such zeal and skill, and the Christians who believe this will already be going "ah yup. That's true" which simply leaves the academic exercise of going "Ah. So that's what makes them tick. "

If you want to try and get people to engage you and debate the validity of your claims, that is a fruitless exercise. It's why I stayed out for the most part. There is no profit, nothing to gain and no value to be had in engaging you at this level. I suspect others feel that way. Or if you want the narrative you expressed earlier go ahead, I know that persecution is an important part of American Christian culture, right up there with the Israel obsession and end times prophecy.

But aside from a couple outsiders looking in and going "Fascinating" as you delve deeper into explaining your theology, you aren't going to get much else.

Your snort is duly noted! I just woke up after a few hours sleep so I will have to post more when I am coherent but I understand your points. If I am not allowed to use the Bible to put forth a defense then how would I have an argument for anything in the Bible? I did not link the Torah Code statistical studies because it has been 30 years since I took statistics and calculus so do not have a good grasp on the equations. Not only have I not studied them but I wouldn't know where to start. I just thought someone might want to look into it. If we are looking at science, then statistics for a possible code in the Torah is a good place to start as math/statistics are well established sciences. Harold Gans is the DOD person I referenced.

You can read the background on Gans or the original mathematician (Eliyahu Rips). Gans is discussed here: https://www.ou.org/jewish_action/09/200 ... rold_gans/

Here is some info on Rips/Witztum/Rosenberg paper. There is a lot of debate on this issue and this .edu site is a start for both sides: https://www.math.washington.edu/~greenb ... eCode.html

Perhaps I haven't listed enough science in the thread to back up some of my beliefs. If that is the case, then I am just a poor communicator. I have tried to use science to show that a belief in a God is not just fanciful dreaming. I used quantum physics and quantum mechanical experiments to show this. I also discussed a little geology/dating techniques for the young/old Earth debate as well as genetics to show that the belief in Darwin's Origin of Species has many scientific deficiencies. I believed that adding some prophetic information might not only spur a more varied discussion but add something directly attesting to my belief. I was right on one account, I got a few more responses. I was under the assumption that a debate between Mike and Myself might not be worth the time and perhaps those who did feel they could comment on the scientific discussion might find it interesting.

As I stated, we have entire books from the Old Testament, as well as large fragments of others that are in the Dead Sea Scrolls. They have been dated anywhere from the mid 2nd century BCE to early first century CE. I hear the argument that we cannot rely on the Bible because it cannot be validated but the Dead Sea Scrolls show that it can be at least back to 100-200 BCE. When looking at historical figures, we do not use that argument for Socrates, whom we only have writings from Plato.

Do we hold Plato (or any other ancient writer) to the same standard? If so, then we should just throw them all out. Here is just one example of a 1200 year gap between Plato's life and one of his manuscripts. Do we say 1200 years means it is not correct?

http://historyofinformation.com/expanded.php?id=1880

"Completed in November 895, this is the oldest surviving manuscript of Plato's Tetraologies 1-6 (Euthyphro-Meno), with some scholia. The scribe Johannes wrote out the text. Arethas and other contemporaries added scholia in uncial."

The Dead Sea Scrolls are easily obtained these days and dated to verify the wording of the OT prophecies.

The calculations I listed were not ones that I came up with, they are researched in theological circles. People may believe what they want but we could write a simple algebraic equation that would give the year I listed of 1948. A simple calculation is not the same as numerology, which is based on occult ideas.

Numerology:

http://astrology-numerology.com/numerology.html

"Numerology

The Basics of Pythagorean Numerology
presented by Michael McClain

Numerology is the study of numbers, and the occult manner in which they reflect certain aptitudes and character tendencies, as an integral part of the cosmic plan. Each letter has a numeric value that provides a related cosmic vibration. The sum of the numbers in your birth date and the sum of value derived from the letters in the name provide an interrelation of vibrations. These numbers show a great deal about character, purpose in life, what motivates, and where talents may lie. "

Mike, thank you for the detailed response and I will get to it when I have more time. Limiting my conversation to exclude anything from the Bible because people may not believe it makes it difficult to get my view across since the study of it has influenced what I believe. A catch-22 since whenever I mention anything in the Bible, I will be labelled as not being scientific. This was my earlier point on Darwin's theory. If all we allow in schools is Darwin, then we have no free discussion, we are just limiting study to an area that some believe is correct. The global warming/climate change debate has become the same type of problem. Supposedly the science is settled so we can have no debate on the other side.

A few random points because I'm about to take advice from the cat and take a nap on this shitty ass afternoon.

Do you know the difference between Plato and the Bible?

There are no mainstream religions around Plato. I did not question the well known historical facts that are woven though the Bible, I have questioned the theological claims in the Bible that use the Bible to support themselves. Also, we hold all ancient literature to roughly the same standards. That is why I conceded Christ through Josephus. The problem is you want mythology to be given the same pass as purported historical events. Why laugh at the idea of Zeus being real, but expect Abrahamic mythology to be taken seriously? And then where do you draw the line? If I read the Koran it proves using the same logic you use that Mohammed is God's prophet. If I read the Book of Mormon the same way I find out Joseph Smith is God's prophet too, and the Native Americans are really lost tribes of Israel... And yet at best you come up with algebra, numerology and really convoluted paths to try and prove real world application of your theology. Just like basically every other major religion since the history of ever.

Numerology. That is not even mainstream among most Christians, although it makes your arguments all the more fascinating because you seem to espouse a fairly common version of evangelical Christianity from what I can tell, and numerology is not a part of that movement, and in some circles I think even looked on as unchristian. One can write equations to do a great many things. I used to specialize in making math professors go "what the fuck did you put in to come out with those numbers?" before they went off muttering how I was completely wrong but somehow did the formulas right. And if one already wants the answer to be 1948, it isn't hard to select the numbers that will give them that. This also requires that coincidence not be a thing either, because there is always the chance that something is a random match.

Darwin, Darwin, Darwin. You are absolutely right, his theories should not be taught as science anymore, because science has moved past them. There is a strange Christian obsession with Darwin that enters the realm of the fanatical, as if he is some sort of scientific bogeyman who will jump out of the closet and scare little Christian children into worshipping Satan or something. There is overwhelming evidence for evolution. Darwin was the best science of his day, but most of his theories have been left behind but remain highly important as building blocks that spurred on further research. Darwin belongs in the history books. As for teaching non evolutionary ideas, then you run straight into the problem of church and state. You want your creation "science" in schools, do you want Islamic creation teachings too? What about Catholic teachings? Shall we haul all the religious teachings into the science classroom? Or should we leave them in a comparative religion course, and watch the fundies get angry because little Johnny reads about Islam and Hinduism from an academic standpoint instead of learning how everyone else is going to hell?

You want magic and science. You want theology and reality. At some level the two don't play nicely with each other unless you seriously water one down or the other. The great stretches you have to go to and the sometimes circular logic required to prove your theology demonstrate the flaws inherent in the argument.

God may or may not be fanciful dreaming. There is still the question of where did everything come from in the first place and what set it in motion. But to insist that your God is the answer, and that your holy book is the divine writ, well that is the height of arrogance and absurdity. I would be far more forgiving of basic deism (there is a Creator) than insisting that a bunch of dirt scratching sheep herding nomads in the ancient Middle East who oddly enough have a lot of stories and theology ripped off from other civilizations in their region not only have all the theological answers but are also the chosen people of this seemingly all powerful creator. Meh.

You miss the point.

The glass is merely a construct to contain the water, which wishes to be free in its natural form, to assume whatever shape it wishes...

We've hashed through quite a lot of information that a few of us find to be convincing corroboration for our own viewpoints.
It seems pretty clear to me that neither side is going to come up with a fact or series of facts that is going to make the other side have a "VOILA!" moment and wholeheartedly embrace the others' side.

It feels like the conversation has moved from a presentation of facts and mysteries into ... more of a "Why can't you see my valid point?" from both sides even.

Pretty early in this discussion I tried to figure the how and why, not look for a winning argument.
How do we come to our beliefs, and why do we hold onto them so tightly?



I'm going to give an analogy to what I believe that we are doing when we discuss Quantum Mechanics and it's logical absurdities... Common sense absurdities.
If we present a problem to a normal 5 year old that is easily solvable with the calculus but not with arithmetic, do we expect the child to figure it out with common sense? No, of course not. Then, if we solve the problem using the calculus, or show the result to the child, does the child understand it? Again, of course not! The concept of the calculus bounces off the brain of a 5 year old like QM bounces off of ours.
It doesn't matter how hard the 5 year old thinks about, the steady progression from wooden blocks, to arithmetic, geometry, algebra, trig, college algebra then finally some calculus must be followed for the normal human to have a good grip on it. At 5 years old, it is a profound mystery of the universe.

We humans are that 5 year old... We've made leaps of imagination, observation, and mighty leaps of logic to arrive at a few gulfs that we haven't yet stepped across.
There is an unfortunate possibility that we are 5 year old children in the cosmos due to our natural limitations... I hope not. Occasionally an 8 or 10 year old appears in the human playground (Isaac Newton, Einstein, Fermi, Bohr, Cavendish, M. Curie, Galileo, daVinci, Galileo, some of the ancient Greeks, James Clerk Maxwell... et al) but maybe the calculus is still too much for an 8-10 year old.
Common sense tells us many things that are simply not true. We have to program our minds to accept things, even though the common sense parts of our little brains tells us "it cannot be!"

Quantum Mechanics, General Relativity (and to a slightly lesser degree Special), the origin of the cosmos - these might be the calculus to our 5 year old brains... I believe that within a reasonable amount of time "we" will synthesize life. It may not (probably will not!) be in the same manner as the original natural construction, but we're getting there. We will be able to go into the human genome and manipulate individual lines of code (wait... we already can do that!) and make large scale block changes to the DNA molecule that actually make the changes that we are trying for in the human species.

This is PMB's prophecy... We'll have some designed humans by the year 2116.


Not sure what you mean here. Should I pull out a hanky and wipe the salty tears from my eyes Murray? heheh I've tried to keep up with you sir.
I was under the impression from the beginning that what we are all doing here is less of a debate and more of a roundtable. I am not trying to woo the religious to my viewpoint as much as I am looking for information that I have missed... I am here to learn. Truly.
If my viewpoint or understanding is different than another's, I try to present the why and how I believe the way that I do, rather then beat my viewpoint into a sharp point and poke someone with it.


Murray, you're stuck on your personal understanding of the word. You also referenced an astrology/numerology website for the definition of the word.

Let's use a respected one, ok? https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/numerology



How about Wikipedia since we're not using the ref as a research cite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology


All that being said, the initial use of the word (by me) was thus


There are mystical or unexplained numbers in your "simple calculation" that are numeralogical. The number 7 seems to hold a magic sway over a lot of things in the bible. 360 days in a bible year also qualifies as a mystical number. If it is a simple rounding method, then it should not be used to project a date in the thousands of years in the future. Am I off base here? Arithmetic was well established by even 5000 years ago. If 360 days in a year is not a simplification/rounding-off-error, then it is numeralogical. Numerology.
Anyway- I didn't mean my numerology comment in an offensive way. Because numerology is used by genuine kooks, other more respectable groups that use numerology don't like the word associated with them. The definition of the word numerology (Merriam-Webster) absolutely does apply to the calculation shown to arrive at the year 1948.


That's my pleasure sir. I've enjoyed the conversation thus far and hope to keep it going as long as we don't get too tautological on either side. If you see me going there, give me a little nudge.



I didn't ask you to exclude your references from the bible sir. I'm still happy to discuss the references, with the caveat that kf7 brought up- using the bible as an unquestioned source of truth necessarily ends the discussion with someone who does not accept it as you and other devout Christians do. I ask again, am I off base?

The bible has many prophecies. To the best of my recollection, none of them are unequivocal. All prophecies require more or less interpretation. Saying that a prophecy is clear and easily dated only happens after an event occurs that can be interpreted as fulfillment. This is my opinion about prophecy.

Here are a couple of questions for those who believe in the creation of species as they are, and who actively do NOT believe in evolution.

When did god create the earth? How long ago, specifically? Were the current species of animals created at the same time as the creation of the earth? Were the 99.99% of (currently extinct) species also created at that same time? Why would a supernatural being create a system in which 99.99% of species were made to go extinct before the thinking primate (homo sapiens) even showed up on the scene?
None of those are meant to be traps or ridiculous or even rhetorical... Some questions apply to certain belief systems and not to others.

Please reference previous posts for my boilerplate disclaimer about not trying to be disrespectful.