LAPD kills ANOTHER innocent bystander/hostage...

[L_O_G]

So, you know what I'd do?

Follow my training, reposition for a better shot....Close distance if need be for a better shot, point blank if required.

OK, that's it. Enough.

First of all, I'm calling you out, TW.

I just looked at the video. Now, tell me, what kind of training have you had? What kind of specialty did YOU get certified in? Are you a law enforcement trainer?

Because with this statement, you just proved that you are as full of shit as a used colostomy bag.

The officers responded with restraint. They tried to get the guy to drop the knife. He escalated.

He went over and took that woman hostage. Did you see the way he was holding that knife? DID YOU?

The officers had NO MORE TIME. THERE WERE ZERO OPTIONS AT THAT POINT. NONE. PERIOD. FULL STOP.

You say that you would have repositioned. Describe HOW you would have done it. THERE WAS NO TIME TO REPOSITION, CALL IN A NEGOTIATOR, TALK TO THE SUSPECT---NONE OF THAT!!!

From what it looked like--it wasn't too clear at that point--but it looked like he had ALREADY started sawing through her throat, Al Qaida style.

You know what? I wear my big boy pants every day. I have pretty thick skin. However, YOU seem determined to find something, ANYTHING wrong with law enforcement. I don't know why, and I don't know what triggered you in this direction. And to tell the truth, I'm past the point of caring about it.

So here it is, black and white---either put on the uniform and see what it's like in our shoes, or shut the fuck up.

[TechnoWeenie]

So, you know what I'd do?

Follow my training, reposition for a better shot....Close distance if need be for a better shot, point blank if required.

OK, that's it. Enough.

First of all, I'm calling you out, TW.

I just looked at the video. Now, tell me, what kind of training have you had? What kind of specialty did YOU get certified in? Are you a law enforcement trainer?

Because with this statement, you just proved that you are as full of shit as a used colostomy bag.

The officers responded with restraint. They tried to get the guy to drop the knife. He escalated.

He went over and took that woman hostage. Did you see the way he was holding that knife? DID YOU?

The officers had NO MORE TIME. THERE WERE ZERO OPTIONS AT THAT POINT. NONE. PERIOD. FULL STOP.

You say that you would have repositioned. Describe HOW you would have done it. THERE WAS NO TIME TO REPOSITION, CALL IN A NEGOTIATOR, TALK TO THE SUSPECT---NONE OF THAT!!!

From what it looked like--it wasn't too clear at that point--but it looked like he had ALREADY started sawing through her throat, Al Qaida style.

You know what? I wear my big boy pants every day. I have pretty thick skin. However, YOU seem determined to find something, ANYTHING wrong with law enforcement. I don't know why, and I don't know what triggered you in this direction. And to tell the truth, I'm past the point of caring about it.

So here it is, black and white---either put on the uniform and see what it's like in our shoes, or shut the fuck up.

We lowly civilians don't have the luxury of killing innocent people then shrugging our shoulders and saying 'well, I tried'....

I bet she would have been alive longer if the cops had done nothing.

That 1 second that it takes for you to sidestep 3 steps to get a clear shot, or close the distance to make sure you don't hit an innocent person, absolutely could have made the difference between her walking away with a scar, and going away in a body bag...

'I had to shoot'...No, no you didn't.... You killed an innocent person.... and as I said, I'd bet dollars to donuts she'd have been alive longer with the knife to her throat than being 'saved' by LAPD.

as far as my training goes, it's been a while, over a decade, most of it in my early 20s... Simunitions, classroom, field exercises, both civilian and 2 major county agencies...

One of the shoot/don't shoot scenarios was EXACTLY this, man has hostage with knife to the throat. What were we trained to do? Stall if possible, reposition for a clear shot, don't shoot if you think there's even a 1% chance of hitting the hostage...

More of the tired trope 'you don't know how hard our job is!'..

Apparently it's REALLY hard to do your job, because part of that job is, I dunno, NOT killing innocent people, and LAPD seems to be doing great at that...

'Don't judge us unless you put on the uniform!'

Yup, killing people isn't okay, until I put on the uniform, then I can kill people and say 'oops! My bad! I' didn't have a choice!'

I'm sure you're a good cop, don't waste your karma defending fuck-ups..

[Alpine]

It's not clear if the guy started slitting her throat or not. If he had already started then the cops HAD to shoot, they had no choice.

[Guns4Liberty]

I think she used a walker and wasn't able to run clear of the freak-o and was caught in the middle.

After watching the video a few more times, I think you're right. That probably explains why she stayed put instead of bailing when the guns came out.

So here it is, black and white---either put on the uniform and see what it's like in our shoes, or shut the fuck up.

I realize this issue is personal for you, but this statement deserves to be called out, too. No one needs to become a cop in order to earn the right to question or criticize the police when they make mistakes. Every taxpayer who employs and pays for law enforcement has a right to call out the mistakes. There are good and bad ways of doing it, but don't act like LEOs are the only ones who can legitimately find fault with other LEOs. That's BS.

It's not clear if the guy started slitting her throat or not. If he had already started then the cops HAD to shoot, they had no choice.

I agree. The issue I have is not with the shooting itself, but how it was conducted. What I see in the video is one officer who had a good position to fire and four who did not. I'd be willing to bet that the woman died from a shot fired by one of the four officers with a bad line on the perp. That is really my only criticism of how this was handled by LE; everything else was good police work, including (and especially) being patient and trying to take him into custody rather than just shooting first and asking questions later.

[TechnoWeenie]

It's not clear if the guy started slitting her throat or not. If he had already started then the cops HAD to shoot, they had no choice.

I disagree.

If any of us took that shot, we'd probably be in jail on manslaughter charges, our face plastered on every channel's nightly news for the next week about how guns are dangerous and rednecks are idiots trying to play cowboy...

But cops do it, TWICE, in 2 months, and .. crickets....

[Selador]

Is there a link to the video on youtube?

[leadcounsel]

LAPD releases video of Van Nuys standoff in which officers fatally shot a hostage

Outside a homeless outreach center in Van Nuys on June 16, Guillermo Perez grabbed a woman and put a knife to her neck.

Three police officers shot at Perez, 32, killing him — and also the woman.

No clear shot, takes it anyway.... looks like they hit her in the head because she just drops and doesn't move after that...

Yet another in the tiresome implied slur against LEOs when no alternatives were offered (i.e. this isn't a news repository site, so is there a dialogue or suggestion, or just constant LEO slander?)

'Implied slur'? Are you nucking futs?

THEY KILLED AN INNOCENT WOMAN, and you have the balls to sit here and say it's an 'implied slur'?

1. I didn't imply anything.
2. Their actions speak for themselves, they're a bunch of fucknuts.

EVERY active shooting training session I've attended, INCLUDING those hosted by LE agencies at LE facilities, emphasizes KNOWING YOUR TARGET AND WHAT'S BEYOND IT, and more specifically, that you may have to hold your fire and reposition to make sure you have a clean shot with a good backdrop and avoid a crossfire situation.

They SHOT AND KILLED AN INNOCENT WOMAN, and you have the balls to say I'm being too hard on them and being anti-cop?

Had she ran and they shot you'd say she put herself in the line of fire...So, either way, not the cops fault, right?



So, you know what I'd do?

Follow my training, reposition for a better shot....Close distance if need be for a better shot, point blank if required.



I guess that's too much to ask of LAPD? Because this is the 2nd innocent person they've killed in less than 2 months..

But I'm the problem for calling them out on it...

Or, unless, as it was referenced by LOG, she died of knife wounds or they were otherwise unable to save her from a knife attack so they acted as fast as possible given their ONLY OPTION was to shoot him and hope for an instant successful kill shot. Under this stressful situation, it would have required championship level marksmanship.

I'm sure we'll get an official cause of death for the woman. I won't hold the cops at fault even if they did accidentally kill her whilst trying to save her from imminent death by a criminal with a blade at her throat and no other better options; and I'll go so far as to say that would be twisted.

As pointed out, they tried negotiations. Failed. They tried less-than-lethal. That failed. He put a large knife around the woman's throat, and that puts her 1 slice away from death. The cops were forced to act, and used a professional standard (not perfect, mind you but professional) at all observed times. I believe they also rendered CPR.

I'd bet the anti-LEO crowd would have criticized the cops for waiting and not taking "an easy shot" if they waited and he killed her... Simply cannot win with the cop haters.

[deadshot2]

I don't know why, and I don't know what triggered you in this direction.

He got a lifetime subscription to a "Cops Fucking Up" newsletter.

Now he spends all his free time "scraping" the internet for stories like this so he can repost with his own editorial comments.


As for LEO's getting away with murder, funny thing is I read and see news reports regularly that tell of officers being charged, tried, and convicted of crimes against citizens INCLUDING HOMICIDE! Considering that every officer who fires his weapon and wounds/kills someone is subjected to a rather severe investigation that includes their personal lives, perhaps even a colonoscopy, before they are cleared (or charged).

In my area the investigation is conducted by a team that is constituted of Officers/Detectives from OTHER departments to insure there is no departmental cover-up.

FWIW, the constant Cop Bashing gets tired even to a non LEO. I'd rather rant about how criminals are brought to the Courts and then receive little more than a spanking. Watching that happen I have to praise the law enforcement community for showing restraint. If they didn't than some of these turds that are on their 8th, 9th, 10th, felony (or more) would just end up in a dumpster with a "third eye" rather than being delivered to the booking desk after their next arrest.

[leadcounsel]

I don't know why, and I don't know what triggered you in this direction.

He got a lifetime subscription to a "Cops Fucking Up" newsletter.

Now he spends all his free time "scraping" the internet for stories like this so he can repost with his own editorial comments.


As for LEO's getting away with murder, funny thing is I read and see news reports regularly that tell of officers being charged, tried, and convicted of crimes against citizens INCLUDING HOMICIDE! Considering that every officer who fires his weapon and wounds/kills someone is subjected to a rather severe investigation that includes their personal lives, perhaps even a colonoscopy, before they are cleared (or charged).

In my area the investigation is conducted by a team that is constituted of Officers/Detectives from OTHER departments to insure there is no departmental cover-up.

FWIW, the constant Cop Bashing gets tired even to a non LEO. I'd rather rant about how criminals are brought to the Courts and then receive little more than a spanking. Watching that happen I have to praise the law enforcement community for showing restraint. If they didn't than some of these turds that are on their 8th, 9th, 10th, felony (or more) would just end up in a dumpster with a "third eye" rather than being delivered to the booking desk after their next arrest.

The other tell-tale LEO bashing evidence is not a single word about the fact that this guy was wanted for stabbing his girlfriend, and that's why multiple armed units responded with guns drawn. Maybe that's a factor. (i.e. he's done it before, maybe we ought to take it seriously when he puts a knife to a woman). [Btw, nice catch to some folks, she apparently is in some form of handicap walker and hence explains her immobility.] Also, not a peep about this criminal, or holding HIM responsible for causing the injury/death of two humans. Nope. It's all the fault of the LEO responders thrust into a life/death situation with about 1 minute to process and act in nearly impossible situations.

[TechnoWeenie]

I don't know why, and I don't know what triggered you in this direction.

He got a lifetime subscription to a "Cops Fucking Up" newsletter.

Now he spends all his free time "scraping" the internet for stories like this so he can repost with his own editorial comments.

See, this is where I become an asshole.

You don't know what the fuck I do... you're making shit up...

I don't go LOOKING for anything...

I'm on a fucking beach and you're sitting here saying I MUST BE looking for shells, because I happen to step on so many of them.. Ever think that maybe there are so many fucking shells is because they're THERE? Maybe there are so many stories because there's no fucking accountability? And even if I DID go search for them, which I don't, would that make them ANY LESS TRUE?

Shooting at Asian ladies delivering newspapers, shooting at another guy for no reason, killing a lady last month, and now another one this month.... FROM THE SAME AGENCY.....

But nope, it's the 'anti-cop agenda'

How about the 'not getting shot and killed by police when you're minding your own business' agenda?

Notice the phrase 'isolated incident' isn't being used any more? There were too many 'isolated incidents'......

I got very little left in this life, and I sure as hell don't need people like you making shit up and acting like you know who the fuck I am and what I do.


In every single fucking thread... It's not the cop shooting and killing someone, it's not the cop caught on camera beating someone up in handcuffs, it's not the cop arresting someone when no crime was committed, it's not the cop on camera admitting that he's gonna lie to arrest someone... and not only is it NOT the cops fault, but somehow, somewhere, you have the balls to straight up make shit up about me and try to smear my name in the mud to justify the FAILURE of the people that are supposed to be protecting people, and not abusing people....

I could be a 10x convicted kiddy rapist who gets his jollies off cutting the heads off of dolls and stuffing them up a little boys ass, it STILL doesn't explain or excuse cops KILLING innocent people, ARRESTING innocent people, etc.

Like I said before... You wanna talk about freedom from gov't oppression and saving your guns, but you'll make excuses for an agency killing 2 innocent people in less than 2 months.

I hope you feel the same if someone you love gets taken out by one of these 'protectors'...


Edit: Pissy mood

Last edited by TechnoWeenie on Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[TechnoWeenie]

The other tell-tale LEO bashing evidence is not a single word about the fact that this guy was wanted for stabbing his girlfriend, and that's why multiple armed units responded with guns drawn.

A criminal's job is to be a criminal. The expectation is that they're already a fucking waste and POS.

A cop's job is to protect and serve, it actually says so right on their cars (LAPD). NOT to shoot innocent people. I expect them to save people, which I understand isn't always possible, but at the very least, not make the situation worse.

Again. Cops from the same agency kill 2 innocent people in less than 2 months, and bringing it up is 'LEO bashing'.... Fucking amazing.

[leadcounsel]

The other tell-tale LEO bashing evidence is not a single word about the fact that this guy was wanted for stabbing his girlfriend, and that's why multiple armed units responded with guns drawn.

A criminal's job is to be a criminal. The expectation is that they're already a fucking waste and POS.

A cop's job is to protect and serve, it actually says so right on their cars (LAPD). NOT to shoot innocent people. I expect them to save people, which I understand isn't always possible, but at the very least, not make the situation worse.

Again. Cops from the same agency kill 2 innocent people in less than 2 months, and bringing it up is 'LEO bashing'.... Fucking amazing.

Okay, for the sake of argument, how would YOU have handled this exact situation differently?

Attempt to pretend you are a patrol officer, responding to a call about a man who stabbed his girlfriend and he's seen in an alley behind a homeless shelter. You respond and observe what these LEOs observed.

Go.

How would YOU have done this differently. I'm genuinely curious. And if it amounts to "I'd aim better," then that's not a sufficient answer.

[TechnoWeenie]

The other tell-tale LEO bashing evidence is not a single word about the fact that this guy was wanted for stabbing his girlfriend, and that's why multiple armed units responded with guns drawn.

A criminal's job is to be a criminal. The expectation is that they're already a fucking waste and POS.

A cop's job is to protect and serve, it actually says so right on their cars (LAPD). NOT to shoot innocent people. I expect them to save people, which I understand isn't always possible, but at the very least, not make the situation worse.

Again. Cops from the same agency kill 2 innocent people in less than 2 months, and bringing it up is 'LEO bashing'.... Fucking amazing.

Okay, for the sake of argument, how would YOU have handled this exact situation differently?

Attempt to pretend you are a patrol officer, responding to a call about a man who stabbed his girlfriend and he's seen in an alley behind a homeless shelter. You respond and observe what these LEOs observed.

Go.

How would YOU have done this differently. I'm genuinely curious. .

I think they did good with verbal commands, and having both lethal and less lethal options available.

I think they needed to position themselves farther to the left, to take more advantage of the brick wall as a backstop. Yes, there are risks of a ricochet but much better than having no backstop....

Don't stop bean bagging him because the first 2 or 3 rounds were ineffective. Obviously the chair blocked it. When he dropped the chair, hit him again.

When he started moving towards the woman, I would have angled so that I had a clear shot of him, and warned him if he moved he'd be shot. I'd probably have someone else attempt a TASER shot with lethal backup...Once it was clear he was heading for her, if I didn't have a clear shot, I'd close distance until I did, realizing that I may be the focus of the knife/bladed weapon.. I'd rather get stabbed/cut than shoot an innocent woman. Yes, I know the 21ft rule.

I understand we're literally talking 3 seconds here, and typing it out is a lot harder than just showing it..

But this is my whole point. Cops aren't supposed to make things WORSE.. Sure, shitty situation, but if you're making it WORSE, you're not doing your job. This is why I get on cops for escalating situations needlessly to 'prove' they're in charge, or whatever you wanna call it....

And if it amounts to "I'd aim better," then that's not a sufficient answer

I think we both know and agree that'd be a bullshit answer, however an officer with a rifle and decent optics could have made a difference, but given how fast it unfolded, I think even IF an officer exited his vehicle with rifle in hand, it would have been too late/ineffective.

Was it on purpose? No. Cops don't go out each day trying to find ways to kill people...

Was it a shitty circumstance? Absolutely.

But that does NOT absolve them of acting reasonably and responsibly, nor from consequences of their action.

You'd think shooting and killing one innocent woman would be a wake up call, an 'oh shit' moment, if you will.. But, nope.. business as usual.. and another innocent woman is dead...

[leadcounsel]

The other tell-tale LEO bashing evidence is not a single word about the fact that this guy was wanted for stabbing his girlfriend, and that's why multiple armed units responded with guns drawn.

A criminal's job is to be a criminal. The expectation is that they're already a fucking waste and POS.

A cop's job is to protect and serve, it actually says so right on their cars (LAPD). NOT to shoot innocent people. I expect them to save people, which I understand isn't always possible, but at the very least, not make the situation worse.

Again. Cops from the same agency kill 2 innocent people in less than 2 months, and bringing it up is 'LEO bashing'.... Fucking amazing.

Okay, for the sake of argument, how would YOU have handled this exact situation differently?

Attempt to pretend you are a patrol officer, responding to a call about a man who stabbed his girlfriend and he's seen in an alley behind a homeless shelter. You respond and observe what these LEOs observed.

Go.

How would YOU have done this differently. I'm genuinely curious. .

I think they did good with verbal commands, and having both lethal and less lethal options available.

I think they needed to position themselves farther to the left, to take more advantage of the brick wall as a backstop. Yes, there are risks of a ricochet but much better than having no backstop....

Don't stop bean bagging him because the first 2 or 3 rounds were ineffective. Obviously the chair blocked it. When he dropped the chair, hit him again.

When he started moving towards the woman, I would have angled so that I had a clear shot of him, and warned him if he moved he'd be shot. I'd probably have someone else attempt a TASER shot with lethal backup...Once it was clear he was heading for her, if I didn't have a clear shot, I'd close distance until I did, realizing that I may be the focus of the knife/bladed weapon.. I'd rather get stabbed/cut than shoot an innocent woman. Yes, I know the 21ft rule.

I understand we're literally talking 3 seconds here, and typing it out is a lot harder than just showing it..

But this is my whole point. Cops aren't supposed to make things WORSE.. Sure, shitty situation, but if you're making it WORSE, you're not doing your job. This is why I get on cops for escalating situations needlessly to 'prove' they're in charge, or whatever you wanna call it....

And if it amounts to "I'd aim better," then that's not a sufficient answer

I think we both know and agree that'd be a bullshit answer, however an officer with a rifle and decent optics could have made a difference, but given how fast it unfolded, I think even IF an officer exited his vehicle with rifle in hand, it would have been too late/ineffective.

Was it on purpose? No. Cops don't go out each day trying to find ways to kill people...

Was it a shitty circumstance? Absolutely.

But that does NOT absolve them of acting reasonably and responsibly, nor from consequences of their action.

You'd think shooting and killing one innocent woman would be a wake up call, an 'oh shit' moment, if you will.. But, nope.. business as usual.. and another innocent woman is dead...

I appreciate your detailed response. I respectfully disagree. The cops never had a good angle/shot and moving to their left, put the woman directly as a backstop. They never had a "risk free" handgun shot as far as I can tell. Urban area, people all over the place. Ricochets kill. Errant bullets kill. Putting the woman as a backstop would draw criticism, especially if she was hit and injured/killed.

As you pointed out, this was fluid and fast. The man could have just as easily charged them, ran away, ran to their left. Or he could have complied. From the time he decided to take the woman until he had her was maybe 1 second. They had NO IDEA what he was going to do and were reactive.

Let me ask this. If the cops simply did nothing and he killed her, would you hold them responsible for failing to take a shot and at least TRY to save her? If the answer is yes, then that means that once the cops show up, unless they navigate a nearly impossible course of action, you'd hold them liable for action and inaction. They pretty much have to be perfect to escape liability in your eyes... if that's the answer.

I don't think that's fair or reasonable to throw a nearly un-navigable situation at a cop, and then expect him to perform flawlessly. Have you ever held yourself to a "flawless performance" standard?

[Old Growth]

Seriously bro, if you harnessed the negative power you put into responding to these lame threads of yours, you could achieve ANYTHING.


You seem to know 80 percent of EVERYTHING in the world, but 100 percent of NOTHING.

Put down the internet and work on starting a NEW life full of success.