WaGuns.org

The cleaning lady should have took off running down the sidewalk, away from the nut with a knife.
Why did she just stand there by her cart??

leadcounsel wrote:The event unfolded SO FAST and with so much confusion, particularly from the time he took the hostage, started cutting(?), and was shot, that I cannot even tell the order of events with 10 replay viewings on my monitor. Try doing it once, live fire, with lives on the line, in the heat/stress/anxiety of the moment not knowing what will happen.

I really don't think you're being fair or reasonable. Do we KNOW she was shot. Dunno. Do we KNOW that is her cause of death? Dunno. Would he have slit her throat? Did he slit her throat? Did she die of a slit throat or a GSW? We don't know yet. Seems like a lot of jumping to conclusions and armchair quarterbacking on your part.

Do you wear a uniform and have you ever worn a uniform and tasked with carrying a gun and making life/death decisions? I have in some capacity and I'll tell you it's extremely difficult. EXTREMELY.

And touche - you surely know that an ADA prosecutes people, right??? Like bad cops, for instance. So you're really not helping convince anyone you have any idea what you're talking about... if you don't know the basics.

It goes both ways with incomplete info. I'll reserve the right to be wrong along with you.

I like joshin' ya because you're the best at debate on this site. Thank you for not taking it personal. I know what the DA/ADA et al do and you'd probably be good at it.

That all said since LAPD hasn't immediately rebutted the news reports of the woman dying via gunshot wounds--reports that include their own statements--I'm deducing that is the primary cause of death. Could be wrong. Still doesn't change my opinion of the event nor oppress my right to said opinion.

Either way I respect LAPD a lot for releasing the recent batch of videos even though they'd don't paint the dept in the best light.

Many depts don't do so, so quickly. If at all.

And if I was a cop hater my life would be difficult being as many friends are current and former, as well as relatives. As far as my time in uniform or otherwise goes we can talk about that over root beers after a Walther session.

I'm triggered

Please supply a safe space with crayons asap

sinus211 wrote:I'm triggered

Please supply a safe space with crayons asap

Here's your coloring book!

leadcounsel wrote: But in the moment, decisions are made. The key events happened in about 1-5 seconds.

Took about the same amount of time for some to decide the police were totally wrong even though they only have a video that is merely a snapshot of the event, not a complete record of all that led up to the event.

No information from the investigation, no real world experience of what an officer is going through during the event, just an instant "Guilty Verdict".

Based on all the similar posts over the recent years it would appear that their is a severe bias against police, to the point some would call it a "hard-on".

Sadly people like this are also present in the News Media.

I believe LEO's that do wrong should be held accountable. This is happening more and more lately but they too have the right to due process. Due Process sometimes takes longer than the average citizen would like but the smart thing would be to withhold judgement until everything has run it's course. In Seattle, Officer Birk was fired for his actions and wasn't prosecuted because of a quirk in our State Law. Likewise with Officer Troy Meade in Everett.

The time to hyperventilate and rant is when the system fails to do anything when a police officer clearly is wrong and totally walks away from any punishment (including termination) when ALL THE FACTS ARE IN AND HAVE BEEN EVALUATED OR ADJUDICATED.

FWIW, I can hardly wait to see what the next "bash" is all about. If history repeats we should be seeing one within the next week or so.

TechnoWeenie wrote:

Do you wear a uniform and have you ever worn a uniform and tasked with carrying a gun and making life/death decisions? I have in some capacity and I'll tell you it's extremely difficult. EXTREMELY.

I carry a gun every day and have had many an opportunity/legal excuse to use it. I've managed to avoid killing people, so far. I even had a TPD officer ask me why I didn't shoot the guy because she would've shot him...

You didn't answer the key question. Do you or have you ever worn a police uniform? (being a "groupie" doesn't count).

There are hundreds of thousand people that carry firearms every day but for their own defense. They are not tasked with defending people and making the same life/death decisions that police officers are. LEO's are called deal with the trouble whenever and wherever it occurs and none of those calls play out like a training scenario.

An ordinary citizen more likely than not will never see a situation like police officers see on a frequent basis.

deadshot2 wrote:

TechnoWeenie wrote:

Do you wear a uniform and have you ever worn a uniform and tasked with carrying a gun and making life/death decisions? I have in some capacity and I'll tell you it's extremely difficult. EXTREMELY.

I carry a gun every day and have had many an opportunity/legal excuse to use it. I've managed to avoid killing people, so far. I even had a TPD officer ask me why I didn't shoot the guy because she would've shot him...

You didn't answer the key question. Do you or have you ever worn a police uniform? (being a "groupie" doesn't count).

Yes, I did ('answer the key question') (*Edited for clarification)

The question was a statement of 'you don't know what it's like to be a cop, to make split second life altering decisions with armed people, you can't question them'.

Anyone who argues 'You can't judge X because you're not X' is proposing an argument of ignorance..

You can't have an opinion on pedophiles because you're not one.
You can't have an opinion on a bank robber until you've robbed a bank..

etc.

Stupidest fucking shit I've heard.

But hey, since we're playing that game.

How DARE you question my statement! Have you worn my Khaki pants? Do you know what's it like to be me? If you wanna change me, then BE me, until then , shut up.

How's that? Yeah, you make about as much sense.

TechnoWeenie wrote:

deadshot2 wrote:

TechnoWeenie wrote:

Do you wear a uniform and have you ever worn a uniform and tasked with carrying a gun and making life/death decisions? I have in some capacity and I'll tell you it's extremely difficult. EXTREMELY.

I carry a gun every day and have had many an opportunity/legal excuse to use it. I've managed to avoid killing people, so far. I even had a TPD officer ask me why I didn't shoot the guy because she would've shot him...

You didn't answer the key question. Do you or have you ever worn a police uniform? (being a "groupie" doesn't count).

Yes, I did.

The question was a statement of 'you don't know what it's like to be a cop, to make split second life altering decisions with armed people, you can't question them'.

Anyone who argues 'You can't judge X because you're not X' is proposing an argument of ignorance..

You can't have an opinion on pedophiles because you're not one.
You can't have an opinion on a bank robber until you've robbed a bank..

etc.

Stupidest fucking shit I've heard.

But hey, since we're playing that game.

How DARE you question my statement! Have you worn my Khaki pants? Do you know what's it like to be me? If you wanna change me, then BE me, until then , shut up.

How's that? Yeah, you make about as much sense.

Sorry, your analogies fail. Your analogies involve deliberate, premeditated evil acts which take some time for preparation, and action. Any person can understand right vs. wrong.

In the cop shooting discussed, any good person will agree her death was tragic. However, absent proof that the lethal bullet came from a cop who had evil intentions and plotted to kill the first hostage he could, the analogy fails.

Why? Because these officers were placing their own lives (and careers) in danger by engaging with lethal force. They could have just sat back and did nothing, right? Watched it unfold. Shrugged their shoulders. But they didn't. They stepped up and made decisions. They attempted heroism, and I give credit for that.

There's no doubt in my mind this woman was going to die having her throat slit under this circumstance. These officers, given just a few seconds, concluded the same thing. So they tried to save her. That attempt failed. The knife wielder is 100% at fault here. In any other scenario where a violent criminal puts the ball in motion that almost certainly results in an innocent death, and heroes try and fail or even accidentally kill the person, I cannot see holding the rescuers responsible provided they acted reasonably. Here, I see no other reasonable course of action than to try to kill this man. Sadly, she was killed in the process of trying to save her.

Here's a better analogy. Arson sets fire to a daycare. Heroic firefighter rushes in and risks his own life to save kids. Finds a kid who is essentially dead, and has seconds to live, and gets him, and the only solution is to immediately with no thought toss him out the 3rd floor window to rescuers below if there is any hope to save his life in the inferno, otherwise he dies. Kid dies from the fall. I would not hold the fireman at fault. Would you?

Ok, I haven't seen any good videos yet. But I have seen a few pics. Including a closeup when he had the knife to her throat.

I would swear he had the dull side of the knife to her throat. And his own hand looked bloody from holding the blade.

Selador wrote:Ok, I haven't seen any good videos yet. But I have seen a few pics. Including a closeup when he had the knife to her throat.

I would swear he had the dull side of the knife to her throat. And his own hand looked bloody from holding the blade.

No legal distinction, just like robbing a bank with an unloaded gun is still considered imminent lethal force.

And the officers would have been unable to ascertain type of knife blade, and which was the sharp side, or his true intentions. This all unfolded in less time that it takes to pour a cup of coffee.... Now put several lives at stake and make a decision from a pool of very bad options.

leadcounsel wrote:

Selador wrote:Ok, I haven't seen any good videos yet. But I have seen a few pics. Including a closeup when he had the knife to her throat.

I would swear he had the dull side of the knife to her throat. And his own hand looked bloody from holding the blade.

No legal distinction, just like robbing a bank with an unloaded gun is still considered imminent lethal force.

And the officers would have been unable to ascertain type of knife blade, and which was the sharp side, or his true intentions. This all unfolded in less time that it takes to pour a cup of coffee.... Now put several lives at stake and make a decision from a pool of very bad options.

True.

I just wondered if the guy was trying to commit suicide by cop, and the woman unfortunately became a victim as a result.

leadcounsel wrote: Arson sets fire to a daycare. Heroic firefighter rushes in and risks his own life to save kids. Finds a kid who is essentially dead, and has seconds to live, and gets him, and the only solution is to immediately with no thought toss him out the 3rd floor window to rescuers below if there is any hope to save his life in the inferno, otherwise he dies. Kid dies from the fall. I would not hold the fireman at fault. Would you?

That's not how any of that works.

Most deaths are from smoke inhalation.

Masks are positive pressure ventilation.

It's against policy to remove your mask, except under extreme conditions, such as when a fellow firefighter has run out of air, and you can do what's called 'buddy breathing', but that involves unhooking the regulator, not removing the mask.... But newer tanks have multiple outputs from the primary regulator (secondary regulator being attached via mouthpiece), so if a FF needs air, they can disconnect from their tank and connect to yours, and you both egress.

I HAVE heard, but never seen or know of any exact situation where it's been used, other than in a movie, where a FF takes his mask off and basically instructs the kid to take a deep breath, and hold it until the mask is back on, but that's movie shit, puts the FF at risk, and if the kid is conscious, they're not 'seconds from death'....

So, in the case of a 'nearly dead kid', you would NEVER throw them out a window... lol... EVER.. You'd make immediate egress...and get medical attention for the kid. You'd be surprised what o2 can do.

Basically, your scenario is total bullshit.

Luckily, my 1st due area was 90% single family homes... I'd have to ask my brother what he's seen, as his 1st due area includes a lot of multistory 'multi-family dwellings' aka apartments..

Will you two get a room, already?

Selador wrote:Will you two get a room, already?

But, he charges by the hour!

TechnoWeenie wrote:

Selador wrote:Will you two get a room, already?

But, he charges by the hour!

But you need a place to sleep.