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 Proper AR15 cheek weld and grip? 
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Curious how fellow members hold and present the AR15 what cheek weld you use.

Forward grip. Do you use a standard rifle grip and create a "V" with your arm, or do you "C" clamp it with a straight arm, or do you use a forward grip or a modified forward grip on the mag well?

Rear arm: Do you point your elbow down, or out like a chicken wing, or in between?

For cheek weld, do you crane your neck forward and put your nose on the charging handle (old school GI method), or take a cheek weld further back on the stock.

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Wed May 15, 2019 12:57 pm
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Forward grip: I use vertical forward grips, positioned a couple inches forward of the mag well. The main reason for using the VFGs is that my handguards rails all tend to get hot and don't do a very good job of guarding my hands from the heat.

Rear arm: My elbow points more downward than out, but not straight up and down.

Cheek weld: I rest my cheek (the part just above my jaw line, really) on the forward part of the adjustable stock. I don't like having it super close to the charging handle. The further away from my optic I keep my face, the less the optic obstructs my full field of view. Of course, more flexibility with 1x optics/red dots than magnified ones.


Wed May 15, 2019 1:11 pm
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Some (of mine) have a vertical grip. On those that don't I use the traditional grip, not the over grip that is so popular now.

Cheek weld. I find it useful to go "old school G.I. - not that I was one, nor because I think it superior except that it provides a positional reference for a consistent weld/sight picture.

I have tried to adopt a stance with my trigger arm elbow tucked in rather than out flopping in the breeze because I think it makes you more streamline for movement and less wide as a target. I also think it provides some additional stability for aiming.

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Wed May 15, 2019 1:24 pm
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Depends on the situation, what space I have to work in. I particularly dislike the nose to the charging handle technique because I like to be able to work the action without moving my head.

Most of the time though, I just shoot mine from the shoulder thing that goes up.

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Wed May 15, 2019 2:10 pm
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So many variables.

Type of shooting, stock/brace, sights (scope, red dot, iron).

For accuracy, it all boils down to consistency, how you can be consistent (repeating it over and over).

Then there is you... depends on body type with all the above.


Wed May 15, 2019 4:41 pm
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leadcounsel wrote:
For cheek weld, do you crane your neck forward and put your nose on the charging handle (old school GI method), or take a cheek weld further back on the stock.


This part really depends more whether you shoot with the rifle straight ahead or bladed to your body. Bladed puts your head closer to the charging handle, and is what US military used to teach for both prone and standing. A lot of modern instructors and competitors though advocate for being straight behind the rifle to better absorb recoil; this puts your head farther away from the action so nose to charge handle doesn't work unless the stock is very short or your neck is very long.

Personally I prefer straight behind the rifle for all my rifles because it controls the gun better during recoil and allows you to spot your shots better. At distance I can often see bullet traces in the air with an AR when shooting this way prone. I do not put my nose to the charge handle.

Here is an example of having the rifle straight in line with your body:

Image


Wed May 15, 2019 8:13 pm
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^^ Nice cheek weld. :ROFLMAO:

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Wed May 15, 2019 8:29 pm
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Yondering wrote:
leadcounsel wrote:
For cheek weld, do you crane your neck forward and put your nose on the charging handle (old school GI method), or take a cheek weld further back on the stock.


This part really depends more whether you shoot with the rifle straight ahead or bladed to your body. Bladed puts your head closer to the charging handle, and is what US military used to teach for both prone and standing. A lot of modern instructors and competitors though advocate for being straight behind the rifle to better absorb recoil; this puts your head farther away from the action so nose to charge handle doesn't work unless the stock is very short or your neck is very long.

Personally I prefer straight behind the rifle for all my rifles because it controls the gun better during recoil and allows you to spot your shots better. At distance I can often see bullet traces in the air with an AR when shooting this way prone. I do not put my nose to the charge handle.

Here is an example of having the rifle straight in line with your body:

Image


Very well put! I concur, for prone, precision competition shooting is all straight up and down.

For higher speed stuff, I'm also not blading, because I need the ability to shoot from a variety of positions, eg. leaning left around a barricade but not transitioning. For competition, the buttstock also isn't actually in the pocket anymore, but on the chest and collar bone. As much as possible, the gun comes up to the shooter and not the other way around, but in practice, that barrel really can't be popping up over the shoulder height so some give has to come and it's usually a little bit of a hunch over the stock.

C clamp... i try not too lock out. It becomes inflexible transitioning right to left.

Righe arm down. This means all my grips are reduced angle grips, the K2.

In my latest match video there is a lot of overhead views you can see the relationship between the arms, rifle, shoulders,etc.



Wed May 15, 2019 9:17 pm
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My forward grip. I was "taught" a more forward grip. I've seen the "C" clamp, but reject it as being less efficient with movement.

I've dumped by forward vertical grips as adding weight and snag spots for slings and such. This position, IMO, is fantastic. It's close. My "V" front arm position is strong. I'm touching the magazine so I know its status. I can remove it to check for "top off." Or remove it and easily replace a mag. I'm also not grasping hot forends with hot gasses, especially on this piston gun. And for a pistol AR, no risk of reaching "too far" for a "C" clamp grasp and shooting oneself (an accident I actually reviewed when I was in SF Group, and a infantryman shot his thumb).

I see all advantages in movement efficiency, weight reduction, magazine retention, weapon retention. No real disadvantage.

Try it. It's a VERY natural comfortable position.


Any feedback or criticisms are appreciated.


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Thu May 16, 2019 10:28 pm
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Gripping so close to the magwell:

it puts all of your grip, from both hands in too close of a proximity. I think detracts from stability as you've created a narrow fulcrum or pivot point.

I've heard people caution placing one's hand around the magwell and near the upper receiver because in the event of a Kaboom, that's in close proximity to where failure will occur.

For me, (obviously), actually using the hand guard, or a VG allows for you to touch/brace the bottom of the mag on the middle of my forearm which creates both another point of stability but also another point of reference for establishing a consistent stance and sight picture.

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Thu May 16, 2019 10:47 pm
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jukk0u wrote:
Gripping so close to the magwell:

it puts all of your grip, from both hands in too close of a proximity. I think detracts from stability as you've created a narrow fulcrum or pivot point.

I've heard people caution placing one's hand around the magwell and near the upper receiver because in the event of a Kaboom, that's in close proximity to where failure will occur.

For me, (obviously), actually using the hand guard, or a VG allows for you to touch/brace the bottom of the mag on the middle of my forearm which creates both another point of stability but also another point of reference for establishing a consistent stance and sight picture.


Interesting. I'm not too concerned for a "kaboom" as there's a lot of metal there and such an event is rare at best. But something to consider.

I also think, in terms of fractions of a second, it's a faster pivot point. Smaller movements make larger changes in point of aim. I.e. if your arms are close, a 1" movement makes a 5" swing. If your arms are further out, it requires a 5" movement to make a 5" inch swing.

It is a fraction of a second faster than reaching forward to "C" clamp. And it does drop a few ounces from needing the additional snag-prone vertical grip...

I'm open to criticisms.

BTW, I didn't "invent" this. It's been around for decades.

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Thu May 16, 2019 11:31 pm
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leadcounsel wrote:
jukk0u wrote:
Gripping so close to the magwell:

it puts all of your grip, from both hands in too close of a proximity. I think detracts from stability as you've created a narrow fulcrum or pivot point.

I've heard people caution placing one's hand around the magwell and near the upper receiver because in the event of a Kaboom, that's in close proximity to where failure will occur.

For me, (obviously), actually using the hand guard, or a VG allows for you to touch/brace the bottom of the mag on the middle of my forearm which creates both another point of stability but also another point of reference for establishing a consistent stance and sight picture.


Interesting. I'm not too concerned for a "kaboom" as there's a lot of metal there and such an event is rare at best. But something to consider.

I also think, in terms of fractions of a second, it's a faster pivot point. Smaller movements make larger changes in point of aim. I.e. if your arms are close, a 1" movement makes a 5" swing. If your arms are further out, it requires a 5" movement to make a 5" inch swing.

It is a fraction of a second faster than reaching forward to "C" clamp. And it does drop a few ounces from needing the additional snag-prone vertical grip...

I'm open to criticisms.

BTW, I didn't "invent" this. It's been around for decades.


It depends if you think transitions are to be done with your arms swinging around your body.

For me, transitions /aiming are done with the knees, hips and core. It's much faster and it does not disrupt your hold and eye/cheek relationship to the firearm. See my competition video, I'm not swinging the firearm around me, I'm aiming using my whole body but not my shoulders and arms. This is also true for handguns, transitions are done with the knees, hips, core ie. an isosceles stance is with the gun in front of of you forming a triangle between your shoulders and the firarm out front dominant of your dominant eye, not, if the target is to your left, transition to weaver stance. The closer I hold the rifle with my support hand, I find the less likely I can hold the firearms stablely enough to do the transition quickly. My hips, knees and torso are about to drive the gun faster than my hands can even hold using a magwell grip.

The other aspect is recoil control. It takes less force as you describe to get that gun to move with your magwell grip. This is also true of the guns recoil cycle to disrupt your aim. Follow up shots will have to deal with the extra bounce created by that increase in mobility in your arms between your hands. For me, ideally, the relationship between your shoulders, eyes and arms stay locked in during transitions and recoil, you're attempting to reduce movement with these parts of your body, this is critical for faster transitions and recoil management.

What I can say is that a C Clamp grip can get very very tiring the further you get that hand out there. So compromises should be made as appropriate for the length of time you are using the rifle to manage your own fatigue. If you are out ALL day pointing at things with your rifle, I totally understand using a magwell grip. It's mechanically very efficient from an energy conservation perspective.


Fri May 17, 2019 2:40 am
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Max Leongrandis', current national PCC champion, lastest video has a lot of overhead shots.

Notice how his shoulders, arms, head and rifle are virtually static for every shot and are always lined up to the target using knees, hip and core rather than swinging the rifle around him. His shoulders are perpendicular to the target.



Also happens in the shotgun world. Notice how the shooters shoulders are tracking the clays through the air. It's their knees hips and core that are doing the horizontal tracking of the clay, not their arms.



And handguns, Hwansik Kim, aiming as far as I can tell, with a LOT from the knees. Notice how the majority of his shots, his hips are square to the target. If you watch his holster with relationship to the targets, you could imagine if the holster had sights, they'd be on target.



Fri May 17, 2019 3:01 am
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@Pinsniper, thanks for the good explanations. I agree with the core, body movement, shoulder square to target, bent knees, etc.

But all that can be accomplished with a magwell grip, which I agree seems more efficient. But I'm certainly not an expert.

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Fri May 17, 2019 10:24 am
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PinSniper wrote:

For higher speed stuff, I'm also not blading, because I need the ability to shoot from a variety of positions, eg. leaning left around a barricade but not transitioning. For competition, the buttstock also isn't actually in the pocket anymore, but on the chest and collar bone. As much as possible, the gun comes up to the shooter and not the other way around, but in practice, that barrel really can't be popping up over the shoulder height so some give has to come and it's usually a little bit of a hunch over the stock.

C clamp... i try not too lock out. It becomes inflexible transitioning right to left.

Righe arm down. This means all my grips are reduced angle grips, the K2.


Well put on the dynamic movements and non-standard shooting positions. Also big +1 to the K2 grip, I use that on all except a couple of mine as well.

leadcounsel, I use that same magwell grip a lot too for movement, especially close range like indoors. I hold further out on the handguard for more precise shooting (other than benched or prone), but don't like to have my support arm locked straight like some guys do. Mostly elbows down for me but it depends on the position.


Fri May 17, 2019 5:19 pm
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