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 Permanently Attaching A Suppressor to an AR Pistol 
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WaGunLaw is suggesting this method of working around the AFT's scheme to tax and regulate AR pistols.

Is permanent attachment feasible? Is it a good idea? Is any suppressor better suited for this than another?

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Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:02 pm
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Yes, permanent attachment is feasible.

But . . . that's a pretty expensive solution.

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Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:06 pm
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I'm thinking that if forced into an NFA sitchy ayshin, it sounds like a fair trade-off. Provided I'm not creating a nightmare to clean and maintain.

Otherwise, we gotta sticky for the steps to convert a pistol to an SBR?

Calling Dana: you have any suggestions? You offering a pinning service for the cans you sell?

Are you going to work with pistol owners to convert to SBR's?

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"The said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." ~ Samuel Adams

“A return to First Principles in a Republic is sometimes caused by simple virtues of a single man. His good example has such an influence that the good men strive to imitate him, and the wicked are ashamed to lead a life so contrary to his example. Before all else, be armed!” ~ Niccolo Machiavelli

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Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:17 pm
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jukk0u wrote:
I'm thinking that if forced into an NFA sitchy ayshin, it sounds like a fair trade-off.


Well, if the whole point is to avoid registering your gun with the ATF, then that falls apart when you register a suppressor with them.

jukk0u wrote:
Otherwise, we gotta sticky for the steps to convert a pistol to an SBR?


No sticky, but it's pretty simple: File a Form 1 with the ATF, get approval, get the gun engraved with your info (trust name and location, or whatever you put on the Form 1), and add a stock. Boom, you have a legal SBR.

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Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:21 pm
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You could but what's the point? If you do this, then you would need to have your already NFA registered silencer welded to your barrel. Are you trying to make a non-NFA "other?"

If you're worried about the change to the designation of a pistol, then make sure your brace meets the points or just take the brace off.

Quote:
Otherwise, we gotta sticky for the steps to convert a pistol to an SBR?


It's no different than how people have been doing it to make SBRs, or their own silencers, and for whatever reason AOWs for years. About the same as when you did your Form 4 for your silencer.


Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:09 pm
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I don’t see how that suggestion (perm attaching a suppressor to get 16.1” barrel length) makes any sense.

If trying to avoid an unregistered SBR risk, why not Form 1 e-file, 60 days later it would be an approved $200-stamped SBR, plus engraving costs. Then it can be used with or without a suppressor. The suppressor can be used on other guns too.


Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:25 pm
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Unicorn wrote:
You could but what's the point? If you do this, then you would need to have your already NFA registered silencer welded to your barrel. Are you trying to make a non-NFA "other?"

If you're worried about the change to the designation of a pistol, then make sure your brace meets the points or just take the brace off.

Quote:
Otherwise, we gotta sticky for the steps to convert a pistol to an SBR?


It's no different than how people have been doing it to make SBRs, or their own silencers, and for whatever reason AOWs for years. About the same as when you did your Form 4 for your silencer.


I guess I had hoped it would accomplish this:
A single stamp for what is essentially a suppressed sbr.

As for removing the brace, there are several other provisions on the AR pistol checklist in the upcoming rule change which may make even that tradeoff unpalatable or unsuccessful.

The new rule incorporates a point system where too many points disqualifies the weapon from being considered as a pistol. Points are added
by weight, OAL and length-of-pull and use of any optics (even the "presence of Rifle-type Back-up / Flip-up Sights / Or no sights" increases the point penalty... WTF?)

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulatio ... a/download

pg. 17 has the checklist.

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“A return to First Principles in a Republic is sometimes caused by simple virtues of a single man. His good example has such an influence that the good men strive to imitate him, and the wicked are ashamed to lead a life so contrary to his example. Before all else, be armed!” ~ Niccolo Machiavelli

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FJB


Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:57 pm
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User 1234 wrote:
I don’t see how that suggestion (perm attaching a suppressor to get 16.1” barrel length) makes any sense.

If trying to avoid an unregistered SBR risk, why not Form 1 e-file, 60 days later it would be an approved $200-stamped SBR, plus engraving costs. Then it can be used with or without a suppressor. The suppressor can be used on other guns too.


Exactly. It's a nonsense solution for several reasons:

- Trying to avoid paying a $200 SBR F1 tax by paying a $200 suppressor F1 or F4 tax? Brilliant.
- Trying to avoid registering anything with the ATF? Again, brilliant. See point 1.
- Want to have a short AR, and your solution is to weld something on it to make it 16"+? Someone missed the point there.


Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:01 pm
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Yondering wrote:
User 1234 wrote:
I don’t see how that suggestion (perm attaching a suppressor to get 16.1” barrel length) makes any sense.

If trying to avoid an unregistered SBR risk, why not Form 1 e-file, 60 days later it would be an approved $200-stamped SBR, plus engraving costs. Then it can be used with or without a suppressor. The suppressor can be used on other guns too.


Exactly. It's a nonsense solution for several reasons:

- Trying to avoid paying a $200 SBR F1 tax by paying a $200 suppressor F1 or F4 tax? Brilliant.
- Trying to avoid registering anything with the ATF? Again, brilliant. See point 1.
- Want to have a short AR, and your solution is to weld something on it to make it 16"+? Someone missed the point there.


Biggest plus is a perm suppressor does not require special permission to transport (out of state, etc), and most ppl end up with one suppressor on one rifle anyway so...


Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:24 pm
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The point is:

If you have to add length to avoid it being an SBR you might as well get the benefit of getting a suppressor. The bonus being not having to buy TWO stamps. pretty simple concept.
There is also a bonus of having a suppressed upper with a shorter OAL than one that starts out with a 16" barrel.
There is no intention of evading ATF regs or attention. Obviously. Getting a stamp for a suppressor should showcase that point.
The attempt is to maximize the value and minimize the outlay of dollars to bring a (formerly) pistol into compliance while retaining features such as optics, stocks and etc. Nothing nefarious.

BTW: getting an SBR costs more than $200. How much is a trust? How much is engraving?

Also: the condescension is objectionable in an otherwise pleasant discussion.

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“A return to First Principles in a Republic is sometimes caused by simple virtues of a single man. His good example has such an influence that the good men strive to imitate him, and the wicked are ashamed to lead a life so contrary to his example. Before all else, be armed!” ~ Niccolo Machiavelli

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FJB


Last edited by jukk0u on Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:27 pm
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A trust can be as low as 100$. It would be pretty basic. Engraving is not much, probably 50 or less


Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:30 pm
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The SBR cost (1200?) is not considered because the owner already has the AR pistol. Which they want to turn into a Title 1 rifle by perm attaching the suppressor to. Engraving is $50. If they don’t have a trust and they want to use a trust prepared for them specifically (wise) then yes that is an added cost. For both the suppressor and the SBR option.

To each their own and consumer choice and all that, but if they don’t already have the suppressor ($600?) and approved Form 4 it seems like an odd strategy compared to a quick e-file Form 4 SBR.


Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:58 pm
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A trust is not a requirement for NFA items. It's not even much of an advantage anymore (nothing like it used to be). I have a trust but will be filing my next items as an individual.

I stamp my own wording on the receiver, don't need to pay someone else for engraving. $0 outlay, some minor skill and setup required. If you don't have a set of stamps I guess that'll cost around the same as a cheap engraving.

Also, I disagree with the assertion that most people end up with one suppressor for each rifle. That certainly has not been my experience or that of most guys I know who own suppressors, except for one who only owns one rifle anyway.

As a technical point, you can permanently mount some suppressors to make a legal 16" barrel, but with a lot of suppressors that won't fly. If the rear cap is removable, as many are these days for modularity, you'd have to also weld the cap to the can (altering the suppressor). I'd probably choose one of the fully welded cans that is dedicated direct-thread only, to be sure it was legal.


Tue Dec 06, 2022 1:55 am
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It's not that bad of an idea for certain applications

My 300blk AR is a 8.5" barrel with an 8" can on it. I rarely take the can off to move to another rifle, I don't have any other .30 cal rifles to move it to

If it were pinned and not an SBR I could take it across state lines without a permission slip

There are suppressors that work better for this than others. Griffin makes some direct thread supressors that are designed to be able to do it:

https://www.griffinarmament.com/gp7-7-62mm-direct-thread-silencer-5-8x24/
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Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:43 am
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jukk0u wrote:
Unicorn wrote:
You could but what's the point? If you do this, then you would need to have your already NFA registered silencer welded to your barrel. Are you trying to make a non-NFA "other?"

If you're worried about the change to the designation of a pistol, then make sure your brace meets the points or just take the brace off.

Quote:
Otherwise, we gotta sticky for the steps to convert a pistol to an SBR?


It's no different than how people have been doing it to make SBRs, or their own silencers, and for whatever reason AOWs for years. About the same as when you did your Form 4 for your silencer.


I guess I had hoped it would accomplish this:
A single stamp for what is essentially a suppressed sbr.

As for removing the brace, there are several other provisions on the AR pistol checklist in the upcoming rule change which may make even that tradeoff unpalatable or unsuccessful.

The new rule incorporates a point system where too many points disqualifies the weapon from being considered as a pistol. Points are added
by weight, OAL and length-of-pull and use of any optics (even the "presence of Rifle-type Back-up / Flip-up Sights / Or no sights" increases the point penalty... WTF?)

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulatio ... a/download

pg. 17 has the checklist.


That entire thing is only about braced firearms. No brace, then none of that applies. Take off the brace and those points don't apply. No, stop reading into it. What is the the name of the thing? "Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached “Stabilizing Braces” No brace, no point system.


Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:07 pm
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