|
|
|
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:12 pm
|
Question about non- semiautomatic AR definitions
Author |
Message |
Normanator
Site Supporter
Location: Shelton, WA Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 Posts: 1128
Real Name: Norm
|
I am assuming that in order to be considered as a single shot (non-self-loading in this case) an AR type rifle would need to have no provision in the barrel to attach a gas tube (ie, gas port not drilled in barrel), rather than simply not having a tube attatched at the moment. Does anyone know if there is wording to this effect (or other) floating around? My google-fu is weak this morning apparently... looking for a legal definition, obviously removing or crimping the tube makes it FUNCTIONALLY single shot... Thanks!
Last edited by Normanator on Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
|
Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:45 am |
|
|
MadPick
Site Admin
Location: Renton, WA Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 Posts: 51917
Real Name: Steve
|
I think it would depend on the specific law you are trying to meet.
When we talk about Washington laws, we look at Washington state legal definitions, as an example.
_________________SteveBenefactor Life Member, National Rifle AssociationLife Member, Second Amendment FoundationPatriot & Life Member, Gun Owners of AmericaLife Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear ArmsLegal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy CoalitionMember, NAGR/NFGRPlease support the organizations that support all of us.Leave it cleaner than you found it.
|
Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:06 am |
|
|
Yondering
Site Supporter
Location: Skagit County, in the woods Joined: Tue Apr 7, 2015 Posts: 1058
|
A bolt action or lever action is not a single shot rifle if it has provision to hold ammo in a magazine. I'd think an AR would fit the same definitions, but I don't know of any requirements to do so.
Are you confusing semi-auto and single shot functions? One has to do with automatically loading the next round, the other has to do with holding ammo in the gun. Two different things.
|
Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:58 pm |
|
|
Normanator
Site Supporter
Location: Shelton, WA Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 Posts: 1128
Real Name: Norm
|
No, I meant bolt action but my tired brain came up with single shot because I had just read some thread where folks had to buy actual break open, single load style ARs to be legal to purchase. Been around firearms for 30+ years, but since WA has the "SARs are bad" deal now, was curious how they defined conversion to bolt action to effect the status of the rifle.... does it need to be permanently modified (weld gas port/no gas port), simply not able to function at the time of purchase (remove gas tube or use a bolt with no gas key), or if ever convertible to semi auto, is it an SAR (including carbine kits for glock or 1911 lowers)?
|
Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:52 am |
|
|
MadPick
Site Admin
Location: Renton, WA Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 Posts: 51917
Real Name: Steve
|
RCW 9.41.010 says:
“ (27) "Semiautomatic assault rifle" means any rifle which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge to extract the fired cartridge case and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge. "Semiautomatic assault rifle" does not include antique firearms, any firearm that has been made permanently inoperable, or any firearm that is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, or slide action.”
So as I read it, if it doesn’t eject the empty and load a fresh round when you pull the trigger, it’s not a SAR.
_________________SteveBenefactor Life Member, National Rifle AssociationLife Member, Second Amendment FoundationPatriot & Life Member, Gun Owners of AmericaLife Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear ArmsLegal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy CoalitionMember, NAGR/NFGRPlease support the organizations that support all of us.Leave it cleaner than you found it.
|
Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:11 am |
|
|
User 1234
Site Supporter
Location: Pierce County Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 Posts: 1117
|
I see that OP is in Montana, but for any WA readers note that the pending WA bill 5217 will ban all AR-15s and AK’s in “all forms” not only semiautomatic. https://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium ... 0114093527
|
Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:38 am |
|
|
MadPick
Site Admin
Location: Renton, WA Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 Posts: 51917
Real Name: Steve
|
MadPick wrote: RCW 9.41.010 says:
“ (27) "Semiautomatic assault rifle" means any rifle which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge to extract the fired cartridge case and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge. "Semiautomatic assault rifle" does not include antique firearms, any firearm that has been made permanently inoperable, or any firearm that is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, or slide action.”
So as I read it, if it doesn’t eject the empty and load a fresh round when you pull the trigger, it’s not a SAR. I'm not aware of any legal opinions, AG directives, etc. that flesh out the RCW definition. So in my non-lawyer, non-legal advice option, if you had an AR without a gas tube then you wouldn't have a SAR. Or an AR without a drilled gas port, or with any other alteration that prevented it from cycling. Of course, this is all about rifles. An AR pistol is not a SAR, since it's not a rifle.
_________________SteveBenefactor Life Member, National Rifle AssociationLife Member, Second Amendment FoundationPatriot & Life Member, Gun Owners of AmericaLife Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear ArmsLegal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy CoalitionMember, NAGR/NFGRPlease support the organizations that support all of us.Leave it cleaner than you found it.
|
Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:47 am |
|
|
Gman
Site Supporter
Location: Unincorporated Rural Pierce County Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2020 Posts: 1804
|
As I've thought about this type of question in the past, the answer I came to was something like the Remington 7615P. https://www.americanrifleman.org/conten ... ion-rifle/Or is this purely an exercise in how you can have an AR-15 type rifle that doesn't function like an AR-15?
_________________ Liberals never met a slippery slope they didn't grease.
I wish technology solved people issues. It seems to just reveal them.
|
Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:07 pm |
|
|
Normanator
Site Supporter
Location: Shelton, WA Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 Posts: 1128
Real Name: Norm
|
Gman wrote: Or is this purely an exercise in how you can have an AR-15 type rifle that doesn't function like an AR-15? Much more this. If a shop could simply remove a gas tube, life would be so much easier for us peons trying to exercise our rights.
|
Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:47 pm |
|
|
MadPick
Site Admin
Location: Renton, WA Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 Posts: 51917
Real Name: Steve
|
Normanator wrote: Gman wrote: Or is this purely an exercise in how you can have an AR-15 type rifle that doesn't function like an AR-15? Much more this. If a shop could simply remove a gas tube, life would be so much easier for us peons trying to exercise our rights. Well, if you're just trying to avoid the SAR issue, then buy the upper and lower separately. No games, you're good to go.
_________________SteveBenefactor Life Member, National Rifle AssociationLife Member, Second Amendment FoundationPatriot & Life Member, Gun Owners of AmericaLife Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear ArmsLegal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy CoalitionMember, NAGR/NFGRPlease support the organizations that support all of us.Leave it cleaner than you found it.
|
Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:53 pm |
|
|
RocketScott
Site Supporter
Location: Kentucky Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 Posts: 11045
|
Normanator wrote: Gman wrote: Or is this purely an exercise in how you can have an AR-15 type rifle that doesn't function like an AR-15? Much more this. If a shop could simply remove a gas tube, life would be so much easier for us peons trying to exercise our rights. Even with the gas tube removed the gas port and gas block would still work. That might cause an issue Not so much a legal issue but a gas shooting back at you sort of issue
_________________ You may be right, I may be crazy, but it just may be a lunatic you're looking for
|
Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:22 pm |
|
|
Unicorn
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 Posts: 2597
|
Normanator wrote: Gman wrote: Or is this purely an exercise in how you can have an AR-15 type rifle that doesn't function like an AR-15? Much more this. If a shop could simply remove a gas tube, life would be so much easier for us peons trying to exercise our rights. Not sure how well that would work. A malfunctioning "SAR" is still a "SAR," most likely. Stick a semi auto trigger in a full auto/burst M16 and it's still a machine gun. There is precedence.
|
Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:33 pm |
|
|
RocketScott
Site Supporter
Location: Kentucky Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 Posts: 11045
|
Unicorn wrote: Not sure how well that would work. A malfunctioning "SAR" is still a "SAR," most likely. Stick a semi auto trigger in a full auto/burst M16 and it's still a machine gun. There is precedence. That is true of federal law but we're talking about state law State law doesn't have language about "designed to", "redesigned to", "could easily be converted to", or anything like that. It only specifies what the rifle is at the moment
_________________ You may be right, I may be crazy, but it just may be a lunatic you're looking for
|
Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:39 am |
|
|
beckdw
Site Supporter
Location: Tri -Cities Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 Posts: 2798
Real Name: David
|
This bill says it was introduced last year (2021). Has a new one been filed for this year (2022)?
|
Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:05 am |
|
|
Yondering
Site Supporter
Location: Skagit County, in the woods Joined: Tue Apr 7, 2015 Posts: 1058
|
RocketScott wrote: Normanator wrote: Gman wrote: Or is this purely an exercise in how you can have an AR-15 type rifle that doesn't function like an AR-15? Much more this. If a shop could simply remove a gas tube, life would be so much easier for us peons trying to exercise our rights. Even with the gas tube removed the gas port and gas block would still work. That might cause an issue Not so much a legal issue but a gas shooting back at you sort of issue So remove the gas tube and turn the gas block around backwards to block the port. Done.
|
Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:49 pm |
|
|
|
Who is online |
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 48 guests |
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot post attachments in this forum
|
|