Just bought a very nice bolt action M48 Yugo Mauser, so nice I'm hesitant to run corrosive ammo through it. Issue is that seems to be the only cost effective option right now. There was some new non-corrosive Romanian production from ~2013 but my google searches show it may not run well in some guns (bolt not closing)

So... Options are:

1 - pay 70c round for new brass production

2 - pay <50c round for Yugo corrosive ammo in spam cans

3 - buy new brass production and reload. Concerned about going down that rabbit hole. I don't reload at all.

4 - ? Ideas ?

So, for those of you with bolt actions (Mosins?) shooting corrosive ammo: If I clean / spray ammonia down the barrel each time / am stringent about cleaning, am I going to degrade the barrel and action? My first gun I'm considering using corrosive ammo on so I'm a newb on this issue. From my google readings if I thoroughly clean the gun after each session I shouldn't have a problem.

thoughts? experiences you may have had?

TIA

I asked a similar question back in 2013.
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=25942
Received some great advice and learned a lot too.

I really think you ought to gift that M48 to me. xD

Sent from Proxima Centauri B through the ether using FTP transmission technology, Honey Encryption, and Peanut Butter & Jelly sandwiches

Thanks. Good reading. What has been your experience with shooting corrosive ?

The reason why you even have the rifle is that shooting corrosive ammo is no big deal as long as you clean and oil your rifle frequently.

Plain old water rinse is fine, followed by an oily patch down the barrel. Clean the rifle when you get home - a neurotic tear down of the bolt is not necessary, just lightly oil the barrel, chamber and bolt face after cleaning. Once or twice a year, tear down the bolt and detail clean it by boiling it in water and a bit of dish soap in a pot on the stove. You will never see bad stuff happen if you do this.

Bubba Beer Bong Pit Bull Buffalo Head will go shoot several hundred rounds over the summer, and toss his rifle on the bench in his unheated garage for the winter. Come spring, he will scream bloody murder that that crappy corrosive ammo ruined his rifle to anyone within earshot for years to come.

This - is how the corrosive ammo vampire legend was born.

Don't be that guy.

I have a few rifles in which I have shot corrosive ammo for 30+ years... I had not done a perfect job cleaning for most of that time. I had used water occasionally back when I was a teenager, but mostly Hoppes #9 and any oil that I could find in my father's shop.
It wasn't until that 2013 thread that I finally figured out the scientific details of what is happening, even though not every detail in that thread is accurate.
The key for me was that the salts in the powder residue were more powerful as water attractants than the oils were at water repelling. I didn't look into whether that is quantifiable or not. It just hit my "I understand enough to believe" button, so since then I have religiously washed the bores out with soapy water, then rubbed dry and oiled.

My favorite method is to have a shop pot full of hot soapy water and dip the muzzle in the water, run my swab down the barrel from the bolt end, and draw the water up through the barrel several times, scrubbing away the salt.
After the hot water scrub I use Hoppes #9 (old dogs and new tricks and all that) and then any clean oil that is handy. The ammonia and other chemicals used are for metals, not the salts.
If I put a rifle away for what I think is going to be a long time, I'll change the oil to a heavier gear oil.

I've not noticed ANY degradation in any of my rifles. I do not shoot any single rifle enough to wear one out, and I am confident that my wash and oil routine prevents salt corrosion.
Some of the guys here on WaGuns shoot so much that they wear their barrels out, but that is a different discussion.

Please remember that the old gun in your hands used corrosive ammo all through it's military life. That was what it was designed to run. Just a little cleaning like Ren said and you will probably be good to go for the next 50 years since it is a bolt action. IMHO using the same same ammo it was designed to use (Surplus) is a good thing. Less chance of over-pressuring it. Again IMHO. All I used in my mosins when I had them was corrosive and never had a problem. A little clean up and back in the steel box.

It's all very well explained here, this should be a sticky.



The scope of the problem was best addressed by an American Rifleman article entitled "Is There Salt In Your Gun Barrel?" at page 36 October 1971. Excerpted is the following to make the point:

"...Various solvents were brought out as bore cleaning solvents. Their success was quite limited. They left the bore apparently clean, but usually it rusted later and required cleaning again, often several times. That is still the consequence of cleaning with only the usual "powder solvent" after firing ammunition of the corrosive type."

"...When the primer is fired, the oxygen of this compound is used, leaving potassium cloride...This is akin to table salt and sea salt, and like them will rust iron and steel in the presence of water. There is water in the air under most conditions, and the steel bore surface, covered with wet salt, rusts.....The potassium cloride can pull water through heavy coatings of grease, so oiling or greasing a fouled bore does not protect it."

"...Trials have shown that the rusting does not occur in very low atmospheric humidities. But the potassium cloride remains unaffected until the humidity rises again for rusting to start or restart. This has been known to happen after the lapse of years."

"...Water is the best solvent of potassium cloride. Soap or sal soda (soda ash, washing soda) in the water cuts the stickiness of the foulding and hot water heats the barrel and makes drying it easier. A bronze bore brush breaks up the fouling and makes the cleaning easier and more effective. Stick the gun muzzle into a container of hot soap suds and pump the bore full several times with a bronze brush on the cleaning rod. If the bore cannot be cleaned from the breech, lay the arm flat to avoid getting water into the breech mechanism, and clean the bore with wet brush and patches. Dry the bore, and oil or grease it for preservation."

"Government bore cleaner is required by rigorous test to clean bores effectively after corrosive ammunition firing."

"Some questions remain."

"Will water cleaning prevent all damage? In general, no. Military experience even in peacetime showed that continued firing of corrosive-primed ammunition results in slow roughening of the bore. It seems to have been imposible in practice to clean the bore soon enough and well enough after every firing. The result was a prolonged annoyance, continual attention being necessary and the rifle bores eventually becoming more or less pitted though mostly still serviceable. Some of these were ruined, and many in civilian use have been damaged. But most damage can be prevented."

"Will water cleaning remove metal (jacket" fouling? No....."



Corrosive Ammo Cleaning Methods Discussion

The first thing to understand is that nothing neutralizes a salt. It is the end product of chemical reactions.

The best idea is to assume that most military surplus ammo, 7.62x54mmR, 8x57mm, .303 British, 7.62x39mm is corrosive.

Most NON United States milsurp ammo through at least 1980 is corrosive around the world.

Except for non-corrosive (semi-commercial by Norinco) Chineese 7.62x39mmn beginning around 1990, most military 7.62x39mm is corrosive whenever made. Recently made Russian commercial is not corrosive but that is now so expensive it is gone from most markets.

NATO headspamped 7.62x51mm and 5.56mm is non corrosive.

Most .30 Carbine is non corrosive, but there are French and Chineese look a likes that are corrosive. The Chineese is headstamped LC52, but the boxes are identifiable. Do not use that garbage. The French is corrosive. The Chineese is Berdan primed and my rule is that Berdan primed is always corrosive unless recently made. Some shooters are insisting some of the Chineese LC52 is non corrosive because it has not rusted their Carbines. More power to them. The garbage don't go into mine.

The flushing concept:

Once the concept of flushing away potassium chlorate primer residue is understood for being exactly that, flushing out and wiping off, then some evaluation of methods that will prove useful can be done.

Keep in mind there is the KCL salt residue itself and the accompanying problems of powder fouling and of copper fouling. Both of the extra problems help trap the corrosive salts.

Point 1: The potassium salts created by the primers are the end product of chemical reactions. They are not broken down and are not neutralized. That is why salt goes to the sea and stays there. Salts can be dissolved but do not chemically change.

Point 2: Water or water containing products dissolve potassium salts. Next to nothing else does. The potassium salts are not "neutralized", but simply dissolved for flushing out of the bore or for wiping off of the metal outside.

Point 3: Most modern bore cleaners contain no water and do a poor job of preparing potassium salts for flushing out. Modern bore cleaners can help dissolve powder fouling that helps release the salts to flush out. A different but related idea.

Point 4. Something to dissolve the potassium salts and something to break up powder/copper fouling works well in tandem to get the steel cleaned thoroughly.

Point 5. The now clean bore still has to be protected with an oil to prevent rusting.

For beginners, the most important thing is that they do not rely on modern bore cleaners for corrosive ammo. What they need to keep in mind is that Hoppe's #9 now has no, none, zero, nada, neutralization of corrosive potassium chloride salt capability. Whatever argueable ability it might have had years ago when the bottles were labeled as helpful and stunk to high heaven, it currently has no help at all in the mild smelling kind.

The actual action of Hoppe's is to partially wash out stuff from the barrel and break up powder fouling. Flushing out is different than chemical neutralization. With potassium salts, you can dissolve it, but it does not change form. Hoppe's without water does not dissolve it. It just partially flushes it out. Relying on Hoppe's is relying on very little help. Once cleaned Hoppe's cleaned bores usually rust a few weeks or months later.

USGI bore cleaner will dissolve and flush out corrosive salts in any of its many flavors and colors of performance based mixtures. The fluids were performance spec based items rather than a specific formula. The USGI bore cleaners are water based, dissolve corrosive salts, have a mild metal jacket fouling remover, and leave a water soluable oil in the bore when the water content dries out. You can actually watch the white milky kind dry and turn to a clear oil.

The result is a temporary coating of water soluble oil on the bore that offers some protection until a better oil can be used. Depending on which USGI bore cleaner is used, there is some very mild copper removal. The white milky kind produces a green/blue residue as it sits in the bore overnight.

Water based cleaners (Windex and such) may flush out corrosive salts fairly well, but don't actually chemically neutralize them. Windex simply dissolves the potassium cloride salts in the bore.

The ammonia in the water based solutions like Windex helps break up powder fouling releasing the trapped salts for flushing out. The ammonia also attacks copper deposits which also releases potassium salts for flushing out.

The potassium salts created by the primers are the end product of chemical reactions. As the end product chemical reaction, ammonia doesn't actually undo the KCL bonds. This is why the oceans are full of salt. It is the last product of chemical reactions and flows away with water. Windex just helps flush it out of the bore and helps dissolve it off of outside metal parts.

Windex and the various similiar water based cleaners leave nothing in the bore to protect it. There is no oil component in them of any sort.

Boiling water down a barrel is a long tested method to get rid of almost all corrosive salts because it flushes the potassium salts out of the bore very effectively. That should be followed by regular cleaning with powder fouling removers and jacket metal fouling removers and bore preservatives. Water works, expecially boiling soapy water, but in truth it is a mess because it is not just the bore that needs cleaned.

Using boiling water, cleaning the bore is easy with a short hose or tubing on a funnel, but the other parts of the rifle needing cleaned are not so easy. The entire bolt and bolt way, the trigger guard where you touch, and the muzzle all need cleaned. And lets not forget the entire gas system of a Garand.

Boiling water followed by three days cleaning with USGI bore cleaner is effective. All places corrosive salt bearing gasses can reach should be cleaned with USGI bore cleaner (outside of barrel, bolt face, bolt locking lug recesses, breech areas, and so on.) This is one reason USGI bore cleaner is so useful. You can scrub it into all sorts of places and then wipe it off without harm as it leaves a water soluable oil on the metal as the water content in the bore cleaner dries off the metal.

Boiling water also works so well partially because it expands the cracks in the steel and releases the salts from down inside the metal. Then it washes them away. It is also hot and drys the bore of liquid water.

For a one product system with the least work, USGI bore cleaner will work fine by itself. There are several different formulas and they are all water soluble oil compounds that dissolve and clean away potassium salts by flushing them out the muzzle. The white milky ones and the ones that are clearish smelling like benzene both operate the same way. They dissolve potassium chloride salt to be carried out of the bore. They also leave an oil coating as the water content evaporates off the metal. they have a mild effect on jacket fouling.

Good looking cans should be selected and the rusty, dented, leaking cans should be avoided as unknowns. Check every lid seal before buying.

It would be nice if some manufacturer marketed a modern equivalent of USGI bore cleaner. It is still being manufactured for the services as some weapons are corrosive primed in larger calibers. (As of Feb. 2010, I would guess most of that has been fired up in two wars, at least most all of the old M2 .50 Cal.)

There is a Birchwood-Casey product for cleaning blackpowder firearms but I am aware of no information concerning what it does to corrosive primer residue.

Keep in mind that corrosive salts are sufficiently hydroscopic (the ability to attract water) that they can pull water from the air right through oils and greases in the bore. Water is what causes iron alloys to rust. The oxygen in the water reacts with the iron particles forming iron oxide better known as rust. Salt attracts water causes rust. Oil and grease are not rust preventives when applied over corrosive salts.

Clean from the breech to muzzle where possible based on the firearm design. This pushes the salts out of the muzzle and away from the action system. Thoroughly clean gas systems if you must shoot the stuff in gas guns.


A Cleaning Plan That Works

My personal solution is simple and way easier than it sounds. It has never failed to protect a rifle fired with corrosive ammo:

a) Immediately after shooting, clean the bore, bolt, action and locking recess areas, muzzle areas, and other touched metal with USGI bore cleaner. Mausers have the bolt dis-assembled because it is so easy. Enfields have the head screwed off for cleaning the firing pin. Small size spiral wire brushes are dedicated to this corrosive ammo cleaning in my range kit. The kit has its own rod, brushes, bristle brushes, patches, paper towels, tooth brushes and so on to take right to the range and not mix up with "clean" stuff used for non-corrosive ammo firearms.

b) Re-clean the bore and action day two and day three with USGI bore cleaner.

c) Clean the bore with Hoppe's #9 day four and day five and day six.

d) On day six, oil all the metal parts with a normal gun oil. Reclean the inside of the bolt. The Hoppe's stays in the bore for short term storage.

e) The rifle is always racked muzzle down to drain fluids out the muzzle into a cloth until stored.

Remember, with consistent good cleaning practices, corrosive ammo does no harm. Forget once, and you ruin a bore. Without good cleaning practices, corrosive ammo will ruin a bore overnight in the worst cases.

Id say the corrosive ammo part has been covered :)

There is some non-corrosive steel cased 8mm ammo available for ~50-60 cents a round. Its Romanian stuff if i remember right. Want to say SGammo had

I went with new brass when i got my Hakim. Main reason being I could reload it if i choose to (i do reload...just not 8mm currently). But 8mm once fired brass is also worth a decent amount. So even buying new you could sell off the brass and it makes new not much more than surplus

Hot water, simple green and a brush, more hot water, simple green again, very hot water rinse - then clean with your normal cleaner with extra vigor, blast it all out with a spray oil, allow to drain, wipe down and lube as necessary. Store normally and it won't rust

WAY more effort than is required. I run 3 soaked water patches through the Bore after i shoot corrosive, followed by a few to dry, then clean as normal with solvent.
Follow that with an Oil patch and you will have no problems with the Bore. I have been doing that for almost 30 years and have never had a problem shooting corrosive ammo in anything.

If you shoot a Semi Auto, always clean the gas system too. Bolt Gun? don't worry about bolt disassembly unless you pierced primers but to treat the Bolt face the same as a Bore.

Just my .02, but i think everything was covered in the American Rifleman write up i posted above.

Yeah. I'm kinda paranoid about corrosion.

I bought a Yugo AK at a substantial discount, non chrome bore was orange and rusty.Thgought the bore was toast.

Cleaned right up with a few patches, bore looks like new.

Corrosive ammo means mercury primers. Designed to last for decades.

^ This.

Bolt-action rifles like the Mauser are ridiculously easy to clean. If buying corrosive ammo saves you a significant amount of money, then I would go for it. As previously discussed, clean the barrel, the chamber and the bolt face and you're good.

Before you take it out the first time, I would disassemble the bolt and clean the components. Sometimes you'll find cosmoline or other crap in there, and it's nice to get it clean.

Semi-auto rifles . . . those concern me a bit more. You can still clean them, but it's a bit more of a PITA.

It's a pity MPro7 doesn't make their Ye Olde MPro7 formulation anymore. They brought it out right at the peak of the last wave of cheap milsurp around Y2K. I have fired thousands and thousands of rounds of corrosive 7,92x57 and 7,62x54R and 7,62x25 with no ill effects using that as my cleaner. Unfortunately MPro7 seems to have gone full black-rifle-tacticool and can't even be troubled to discuss corrosive ammo cleaning on their packaging or website anymore.

I'm almost out and it will be a sad day when the last bottle runs dry.