Gun store Shooting Locations It is currently Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:51 pm


Rules Brads Guns Rainier Arms McCallen Killer Innovations Fessleman Firearms
WGO Chat Room Rehv Arms Vantage Reloading
Gear Fortis WCA 2A Ind. Pintos WAC
Calendar




Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
 Pepper sprayed... defense use of lethal force? 
Author Message
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Maple Valley, WA
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011
Posts: 7785
Real Name: Young
So, earlier last week border agents used lethal force against someone that pepper sprayed them.

I said it was totally justified. I still stand by it and I'm sure once the investigation is over... it'll prove that point (granted if there is any need for an investigation).





Now another example of pepper spray...

Now in this case at MacDonald's pepper spray was used to stun and rob a person of their iPhone.

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/robbery ... deo/nkdMF/


Every case is unique. Change just one or a few perimeters and then you are talking about a whole different "outcome"

What people forget is what is happening at that moment. This is what jurors are going to be asked over and over again. What would a reasonable person do...

In the case of the MacDonalds... the guy being robbed stopped being "threatened" but more pissed off. He became the aggressor. If the BG's continued to pose a threat... lethal force would be warranted and defensible. But once they turned and started running... and not threatening others... it changes the ballgame.

He gave chase... so right after he got up to run after them... then things change. He has every right to run after them... but lethal force stops there. He can use reasonable force to stop them but trying to shoot them was not the answer.





Everyone

Has different experiences and backgrounds... so when folks talk about what "they" would do... it comes from their idea and background of the situation. The "point of view" or perspective is wide and diverse that it becomes hard to plan "what if" scenarios... unless you have a clear understanding of the situation.


Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:39 am
Profile
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Unincorporated King County
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012
Posts: 7151
You didn't like the thread that got locked?
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=53812

btw I think this is a good topic. It can be difficult to determine the intent of someone who uses pepper spray. We have a predisposition if it is used on us to assume it is offensive, but people don't always see things the same way we do.


Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:44 am
Profile
Online
Site Admin
User avatar
Site Admin

Location: Renton, WA
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011
Posts: 40633
Real Name: Steve
ANZAC wrote:
btw I think this is a good topic.


So do I. Let's try it again.

_________________
Steve

Benefactor Life Member, National Rifle Association
Life Member, Second Amendment Foundation
Life Member, Gun Owners of America
Life Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms
Legal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy Coalition
Please support the organizations that support all of us.

Leave it cleaner than you found it.


Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:25 am
Profile
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Unincorporated King County
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012
Posts: 7151
MadPick wrote:
ANZAC wrote:
btw I think this is a good topic.


So do I. Let's try it again.


:thumbsup2: :thumbsup2:


Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:34 pm
Profile
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Unincorporated King County
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012
Posts: 7151
http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/y ... pper-spray

Quote:
Some of you will say “I’d just shoot him.” Not so fast. In general, using deadly force requires that a reasonable person be in fear of serious injury or death. It’s going to be tough to show that pepper spray was a lethal weapon used against you when almost every police department in the country places the use of pepper spray at the LOWEST level on the use of force continuum. In most police agencies, you are required to pepper spray a resisting subject (if feasible) before you even consider using strikes against him. Pepper spray sucks. I know. I’ve been exposed to it over 50 times in training and on the street. It causes a lot of pain and some temporary blindness, but it doesn’t cause serious injury.

The standard argument I get from the “I’d just shoot him” crowd is that if the victim is disabled by the pepper spray, the criminal could disarm the victim and shoot him with his own gun. It’s a roundabout argument for justifying a deadly force response, but it doesn’t always work. In my opinion, if a criminal was using pepper spray and attempting to disarm his victim, it likely WOULD justify a lethal response. The problem is that the criminal actually has to be trying to take the gun for the victim to fear for his life. We need reasonable, articulable facts that would lead a person in a similar situation to believe that a disarming attempt was immanent. Mere possibility of an event happening isn’t enough evidence to keep you out of jail.


Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:36 pm
Profile
Online
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Auburn, WA
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011
Posts: 14660
Real Name: Rick
Example #1
You have your phone ripped from your hand or taken off the table while having coffee. You are lucky enough to trip/catch/whatever the BG. You begin to beat the crap out of him/her. They give up. You are now sitting on them, calling 911.

Example #2
Same as above only you pull your gun and are now holding them at gunpoint until the po po show up.

What will happen to you in both cases?

(BTW, you never 'touched' them... they tripped)

_________________
Beyond pissed :angryfire:

I do have good days but Washington State is becoming a shithole faster than I can loose money at a casino.


Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:42 pm
Profile
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Sea-Tuk
Joined: Wed Oct 5, 2011
Posts: 2999
there's been quite a few cases that i could cite in seattle of hoodrats using pepper spray and attacking folks.

a spray for a spray. :wink05:

_________________
Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.


Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:46 pm
Profile
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Maple Valley, WA
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011
Posts: 7785
Real Name: Young
AR15L wrote:
Example #1
You have your phone ripped from your hand or taken off the table while having coffee. You are lucky enough to trip/catch/whatever the BG. You begin to beat the crap out of him/her. They give up. You are now sitting on them, calling 911.

Example #2
Same as above only you pull your gun and are now holding them at gunpoint until the po po show up.

What will happen to you in both cases?

(BTW, you never 'touched' them... they tripped)





I'm just trying to figure how this has anything to do with the use of pepper spray?


Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:17 pm
Profile
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Maple Valley, WA
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011
Posts: 7785
Real Name: Young
UpDog wrote:
there's been quite a few cases that i could cite in seattle of hoodrats using pepper spray and attacking folks.

a spray for a spray. :wink05:



The use of pepper spray is becoming more common for BG's. It's legal to buy at stores and online (easy to get) and easy to use and hide.
Stuns and instantly works to subdue people.

As for spray for spray... childish. As if someone pepper spraying you... there is a negative reason for this to happen. Meaning the BG is NOT there as your friend... as a joke.



If you carry you should consider other alternatives to returning spray for spray. icon_eek


Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:21 pm
Profile
Online
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Auburn, WA
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011
Posts: 14660
Real Name: Rick
oldkim wrote:
AR15L wrote:
Example #1
You have your phone ripped from your hand or taken off the table while having coffee. You are lucky enough to trip/catch/whatever the BG. You begin to beat the crap out of him/her. They give up. You are now sitting on them, calling 911.

Example #2
Same as above only you pull your gun and are now holding them at gunpoint until the po po show up.

What will happen to you in both cases?

(BTW, you never 'touched' them... they tripped)





I'm just trying to figure how this has anything to do with the use of pepper spray?


I guess I got ahead of myself. Let me fix the story.

You have your phone ripped from your hand after being sprayed. You are lucky enough to trip/catch/whatever the BG. You begin to beat the crap out of him/her. They give up. You are now sitting on them, calling 911.

Example #2
Same as above only you pull your gun and are now holding them at gunpoint until the po po show up.

What will happen to you in both cases?

(BTW, you never 'touched' them... they tripped)

_________________
Beyond pissed :angryfire:

I do have good days but Washington State is becoming a shithole faster than I can loose money at a casino.


Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:38 pm
Profile
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Sea-Tuk
Joined: Wed Oct 5, 2011
Posts: 2999
oldkim wrote:
UpDog wrote:
there's been quite a few cases that i could cite in seattle of hoodrats using pepper spray and attacking folks.

a spray for a spray. :wink05:



The use of pepper spray is becoming more common for BG's. It's legal to buy at stores and online (easy to get) and easy to use and hide.
Stuns and instantly works to subdue people.

As for spray for spray... childish. As if someone pepper spraying you... there is a negative reason for this to happen. Meaning the BG is NOT there as your friend... as a joke.



If you carry you should consider other alternatives to returning spray for spray. icon_eek


I'm somewhat confused on what you mean by that. Are you saying spray for spray was a bad joke?

_________________
Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.


Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:14 pm
Profile
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Joined: Wed Mar 6, 2013
Posts: 12018
AR15L wrote:
Example #1
You have your phone ripped from your hand after being sprayed. You are lucky enough to trip/catch/whatever the BG. You begin to beat the crap out of him/her. They give up. You are now sitting on them, calling 911.

Example #2
Same as above only you pull your gun and are now holding them at gunpoint until the po po show up.

What will happen to you in both cases?

(BTW, you never 'touched' them... they tripped)


I am still not following the spray connection. Other than that your eyes are going to be burning in both of your scenarios.

Holding someone at gunpoint until LE arrives is a terribly dangerous thing to have to do... The Good Guy is in danger of being mistaken for a Bad Guy- it's happened.

From my layman's understanding, you are justified in holding the bad guy at gunpoint... I'd feel a little safer if I had been having lunch with SpikedZombies and he was the one sitting on the perp.


Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:56 pm
Profile
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: Unincorporated King County
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012
Posts: 7151
I think the situations where it is clearly some kind of assault (i.e. not someone you approached, someone ambushed you) it is probably clear cut ok to respond.
e.g.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Pizz ... 75431.html

But let's say you have a confrontation with a co-worker, or someone wants to have a yelling match with you over who was in the parking space first, or whatever. It is quite possible they would claim they were in fear of their lives (vs someone open carrying who is arguing with them and behaving in what they considered a "threatening" manner). People tell me I am threatening when I talk normally. I hear that all the time. (and I'm 6'5" 280lb).

Think of how that would play out, in a situation where they weren't trying to rob or assault you etc.

Voices are raised, they spritz you, you draw and fire (maybe they're turning away or backing off). Imagine how it looks on video....


Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:36 pm
Profile
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Location: south 'merca
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012
Posts: 9677
Real Name: Mike
PMB wrote:
AR15L wrote:
Example #1
You have your phone ripped from your hand after being sprayed. You are lucky enough to trip/catch/whatever the BG. You begin to beat the crap out of him/her. They give up. You are now sitting on them, calling 911.

Example #2
Same as above only you pull your gun and are now holding them at gunpoint until the po po show up.

What will happen to you in both cases?

(BTW, you never 'touched' them... they tripped)


I am still not following the spray connection. Other than that your eyes are going to be burning in both of your scenarios.

Holding someone at gunpoint until LE arrives is a terribly dangerous thing to have to do... The Good Guy is in danger of being mistaken for a Bad Guy- it's happened.

From my layman's understanding, you are justified in holding the bad guy at gunpoint... I'd feel a little safer if I had been having lunch with SpikedZombies and he was the one sitting on the perp.


Send one of mine to the hostipal... I'll send one of yours to the morgue.

Don't bring pepper spray to a gun fight.

Having been pepper sprayed, and know how it feels, and the affects of it:
If you fucking spray me... I swear to god I will do everything in my power to fucking put you out of the fight, including ending ones life if needed.

Spraying me is an attack on me, with intent to do harm, if you intend to do me harm, I have the right to defend myself. And I will do such, as quickly as fucking possible.

_________________
"No Quarter, No Mercy"
mash_man wrote:
#gangbangerlivesmatter


Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:24 pm
Profile
Site Supporter
User avatar
Site Supporter

Joined: Wed Mar 6, 2013
Posts: 12018
Soldier_Citizen wrote:
Send one of mine to the hostipal... I'll send one of yours to the morgue.

Don't bring pepper spray to a gun fight.

Having been pepper sprayed, and know how it feels, and the affects of it:
If you fucking spray me... I swear to god I will do everything in my power to fucking put you out of the fight, including ending ones life if needed.

Spraying me is an attack on me, with intent to do harm, if you intend to do me harm, I have the right to defend myself. And I will do such, as quickly as fucking possible.


Agreed... When I was single and childless I played in all sorts of reindeer games like bar fights. Had a great time when I was in the service. We'd be planning out the fight path, which bars the marines were going to be in, which ones the jerks in the next room over were going to...
Lots of fun.

That sort of changed for me when I had young ones springing up all around me like a yard full of daisies. Er, dandelions. Er... Daisies. Yes.
I don't play fukfuk games anymore. If I was sprayed with the pepper juice by a friend (don't do it Mike) I'd keep it holstered and cuss up a batch... I'd glower and plan a monstrously terrible revenge "joke".
But if it was a stranger? I'd feel that the stranger's intent was to do imminent bodily harm to me as I was incapacitated. That threat is now more than just a bar fight or a sore body for a few days (the late teens and 20's rejuvenative powers are wasted on the youth) but now a threat to my children as well.

If it feels like an attack, kid gloves come off. I don't get as much enjoyment out of fisticuffs as I used to.


Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:35 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum



Rent Me Pintos NRA SAF CCKRBA
Aldersons e-arms.com


Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software for PTF.
[ Time : 0.670s | 16 Queries | GZIP : Off ]