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 Pepper sprayed... defense use of lethal force? 
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Location: Lawton, OK
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When I was in GITMO we had to get approval from the base commander to use pepper spray, it was considered "chemical warfare". If the migrants did riot we were free to use three foot long batons to crack skulls open?

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
"Evil often triumphs, but never conquers." Joseph Roux

Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:21 am
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Location: Olympia, WA
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Anybody who has been sprayed knows the debilitating effects that it has. If I get sprayed, then I am going to react according to the reason I got sprayed and who sprayed me.

Another thing to remember, spray is not intended for an "Assault" device. It's intended as a stand-off device, where you use it in order to make distance between you and the other person. If somebody uses the spray to debilitate a person to rob them etc, then most likely they too will feel some effects of the spray.. Just follow the snot trail to the BG's house.

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:20 am
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As in ANY self Defense situation the DETAILS MATTER, ALL of them.  We have had a number of scenarios laid out in this thread and another this week  Honestly even thru the bickering this is great information and excersize.  It is important as carriers that we think about these situations before we are thrust into them, hindsight is 20/20 so lets use that hindsight to our advantage..
oldkim wrote:
Every case is unique.  Change just one or a few perimeters and then you are talking about a whole different "outcome"
What people forget is what is happening at that moment.  This is what jurors are going to be asked over and over again.  What would a reasonable person do...

  1. The Parking lot blocking pepperspray scenario-"A 400lb guy (person A) blocks a woman's (Person B) car in at the casino. He's open carrying, and screaming at her because he's a nut job or whatever. But he hasn't drawn his weapon. So she pepper sprays him to buy time to get the eff out of there. And then he shoots her because he was sure she was going to take his gun and kill him, and claims it was a justified response. "
    • Person A also has closed the distance to person B while screaming at them and gotten close enough that pepperspray can even reach person A. That means Person A got within 5-10ft of person B while screaming at them, yeah a reasonable person would say use of pepperspray is warranted. Person A is acting accressively AND closing the distance.
    • There is more than likely a disparity of force due to sheer size compounded with the fact she knows he is carrying. (Settle down OC folks, I am not say just being armed is a reason to freak out and pepperspray someone, but coupled with the fact he is acting aggresively it does escalate the response a reaonsbale person would find acceptable. It can play out in Disparity of force in a possible self defense situation or trial.
    • Taken at face value, JUST the information provided that would not be a justified shoot. So person A blocks someone in, and person B calls them on it, Person A then start screaming at them and approaches person B. Person A is the aggressor, they are closing distance and escalating it from a simple "move your fucking car" to a physical confrontation in which person B has a reasonable fear for their safety and employed a non lethal (though incapacitating) deterant.
    • IMO person A is not justified in shooting, they were the aggressor/escalator of the encounter.
  2. (I know not pepperspray but just a reminder fo details matter) We just had video this week of the guy coming up on an altercation in which a knife was being brandished, he held the person with the knife at gunpoint and called the PD. Held him there at gunpoint until they arrived.
    • People on video are freaking out, put gun away etc.. Something also to add to your thinking is bystander issues. They can be used against you in court..
    • This guy was also lucky that he was known to the LEO that showed up, and they didn't even give him a second glance as they got out of the car. That will not be true of 99% of us.
    • Also it turned out the person with the knife was trying to get his stolen bike back, so the big gotcha of CC and intervening is that we often do not know the lead up to a situation, WHO is actually the BG when you walk up on an altercation? The BG in this case got away but may have been caught afterwards.

But just any old day someone sprays me though, yeah I am draw and shoot if I can see my target/attacker enough to take a shot. Makes me re-examine my use of contact lenses. Having glasses on could provide some protection for your eyes on initial deployment of pepperspray on you. Gain critical seconds before your nose and lungs explode..

Thanks for a good topic and keeping it ontrack this time. :thumbsup2:

PMB Just you being in the same state is scarey and justifies pepper spraying you.. least we don't have to worry about that anymore!!


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Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:30 am
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golddigger14s wrote:
When I was in GITMO we had to get approval from the base commander to use pepper spray, it was considered "chemical warfare". If the migrants did riot we were free to use three foot long batons to crack skulls open?

Fuck migrant ops. Fuck that.

"No Quarter, No Mercy"
mash_man wrote:

Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:29 pm
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