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 When does Open Carry become Concealed? 
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I've been wondering this for a while.... WA is an open carry state - right? What happens, say in weather as of late, when you strap on your OC rig and throw a heavy shirt or coat on that inadvertently covers/hides/conceals the weapon fully or in part? I know you're good to go if you have a cpl... but if you don't, and someone catches a glimpse of the partially/poorly OC rig, does that change it into a visible concealed carry?

Would an OWB holster indicate that you are in fact open carrying even though the weapon is obscured by clothing?
How much of the gun needs to be visible when OCing to keep from being 'concealed'?

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Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:58 pm
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JohnMBrowning wrote:
I've been wondering this for a while.... WA is an open carry state - right? What happens, say in weather as of late, when you strap on your OC rig and throw a heavy shirt or coat on that inadvertently covers/hides/conceals the weapon fully or in part? I know you're good to go if you have a cpl... but if you don't, and someone catches a glimpse of the partially/poorly OC rig, does that change it into a visible concealed carry?


In that scenario you could be screwed legally speaking.

JohnMBrowning wrote:
Would an OWB holster indicate that you are in fact open carrying even though the weapon is obscured by clothing?


According to the letter of the law no, it wouldnt qualify as OC if it was partially or completely concealed even if it was in an OWB holster.

JohnMBrowning wrote:
How much of the gun needs to be visible when OCing to keep from being 'concealed'?


Sounds like a question the answer to which would be highly variable depending on which lawyer/district attorney you asked.

MODS: P.S. this thread should likely move to the Open/Concealed/Why We Carry section of gun talk

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"The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - St. George Tucker

A careful definition of words would destroy half the agenda of the political left and scrutinizing evidence would destroy the other half. - Thomas Sowell

"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow...

For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." - Jeff Snyder

Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys. It realizes the ancient dream of the Jovian thunderbolt, and as such it is the embodiment of personal power. For this reason it exercises a curious influence over the minds of most men, and in its best examples it constitutes an object of affection unmatched by any other inanimate object.

Jeff Cooper
1997 The Art of the Rifle Page 1.

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SUGGEST CASE BE SUBMITTED ON APPELLANT'S BRIEF. UNABLE TO OBTAIN ANY MONEY FROM CLIENTS TO BE PRESENT & ARGUE BRIEF.

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Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:41 pm
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Too many variables and it's very subjective.
Depends on the witness, the cop, the judge, and finally the jury.
Also the size of the gun, what you were wearing, holster, the weather........
It's a crap shoot.
Easier to just get a CPL.

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Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:47 pm
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There has not been a test case on this that I've heard of. I used to watch the OCDO board a bunch but it died out a few years ago.

It has been mentioned that if you "cover" any part of the gun that it could be considered concealed. Then you have to ask yourself, what does the holster do? It covers a part of the gun.

I highly suspect if you cover a gun with a shirt/jacket that a normal person would consider it concealed even if a part of it was visible. Or even if you had it in a OWB holster. WHile I conceal mostly, if the barrel pokes out below my jacket line, does that mean i'm now Open Carrying? I wouldn't think so but I suspect I would be locked up if a cop asked for my CPL and I didn't have one. Probably depends on the cop too.

The only relevant RCW I know of is this.
http://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050

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Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:52 pm
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Problem is, nowhere in 9.41.010 is the term 'concealed' defined.
http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.010

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Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:58 pm
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Guntrader wrote:
Problem is, nowhere in 9.41.010 is the term 'concealed' defined.
http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.010

Correct. By not defining it, it is left to interpretation by a cop and prosecutor. They by a jury of your "peers" if you take it that far.

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Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:02 pm
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I dont want to hijack the thread but this seems somewhat related. If it needs to move I will move it but I was just researching the RCW and a thought occurred to me. A Mossberg shockwave doesnt appear to meet the definition of "shotgun" in the RCW:

RCW 9.41.010 wrote:
(26) "Shotgun" means a weapon with one or more barrels, designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.


Which would seem to suggest that RCW 77.15.460 wouldnt apply (Loaded rifle or shotgun in vehicle prohibition)

And actually a strict reading of the terms defined under RCW 9.41.010:

RCW 9.41.010 wrote:
(20) "Pistol" means any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.


Would seem to suggest that according to Washington a mossberg shockwave is a pistol regardless of what the ATF says.

So the question I have is could you carry a loaded mossberg shockwave in your vehicle (not concealed on your person) if you have a CPL?

Of course the ATF warns in their letter on the shockwave that the NFA categorization "may" change if the shockwave is concealed on your person.

https://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Shockwave-Letter-from-ATF-3-2-17.pdf

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"Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." – T.S. Eliot

"The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - St. George Tucker

A careful definition of words would destroy half the agenda of the political left and scrutinizing evidence would destroy the other half. - Thomas Sowell

"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow...

For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." - Jeff Snyder

Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys. It realizes the ancient dream of the Jovian thunderbolt, and as such it is the embodiment of personal power. For this reason it exercises a curious influence over the minds of most men, and in its best examples it constitutes an object of affection unmatched by any other inanimate object.

Jeff Cooper
1997 The Art of the Rifle Page 1.

Spoiler: show
SUGGEST CASE BE SUBMITTED ON APPELLANT'S BRIEF. UNABLE TO OBTAIN ANY MONEY FROM CLIENTS TO BE PRESENT & ARGUE BRIEF.

The defense attorney's telegram to the clerk of the Supreme Court, March 29, 1939, in re United States. v. Miller.

You don't need to go to Law School to understand the constitutional implications of that.

“You can’t cut the throat of every cocksucker whose character it would improve.”
Spoiler: show
MadPick wrote:
Bob Ferguson is a total piece of shit. Of this, I am convinced.

cityslicker wrote:
I don't want to be told that I can't remove the tree by some tree-hugging pole smoker from the eat-a-dick foundation/Olympia/King County.

WARNING: I DEBATE IGNORAMUSES FOR MY OWN ENTERTAINMENT


Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:25 pm
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RCW was written by drunk chimpanzees, not supposed to make sense.
I've met a few of them.

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Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:34 pm
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Guntrader wrote:
RCW was written by drunk chimpanzees, not supposed to make sense.
I've met a few of them.


Well...given your avatar, this isn't entirely surprising.

:ROFLMAO:

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Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:42 pm
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My bad for not realizing there is this sub forum....

So... its not just me.... there is in fact a large fuzzy grey area to an obscured OC rig. Sounds like its best to have your cpl on you even if you are OCing just to avoid any biased interpretation of the vague definition.

It almost seems that to properly OC, you have to basically 'display' your gun in a dickish fashion.

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Of the ten voices I hear in my head, only three keep telling me NOT to shoot....
Do I go with the majority or common sense?


Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:16 am
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Guntrader wrote:
RCW was written by drunk chimpanzees, not supposed to make sense.
I've met a few of them.


Having helped write one quite some time ago, the process is very convoluted, time consuming, and seemingly deliberately obfuscated to make it harder to understand the intent. My original document was about a page long, by the time the various lawyers had gotten through with it, it was more like three pages of unintelligible legalese.

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Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:40 am
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jdhbulseye wrote:
I dont want to hijack the thread but this seems somewhat related. If it needs to move I will move it but I was just researching the RCW and a thought occurred to me. A Mossberg shockwave doesnt appear to meet the definition of "shotgun" in the RCW:

RCW 9.41.010 wrote:
(26) "Shotgun" means a weapon with one or more barrels, designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.


Which would seem to suggest that RCW 77.15.460 wouldnt apply (Loaded rifle or shotgun in vehicle prohibition)

And actually a strict reading of the terms defined under RCW 9.41.010:

RCW 9.41.010 wrote:
(20) "Pistol" means any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.


Would seem to suggest that according to Washington a mossberg shockwave is a pistol regardless of what the ATF says.

So the question I have is could you carry a loaded mossberg shockwave in your vehicle (not concealed on your person) if you have a CPL?

Of course the ATF warns in their letter on the shockwave that the NFA categorization "may" change if the shockwave is concealed on your person.

https://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Shockwave-Letter-from-ATF-3-2-17.pdf

A Mossberg Shockwave or Remington TAC-14 are pistols under WA state law. They cannot be anything else (don't meet the definitions).

The ATF saying that the FEDERAL classification could change if concealed is bogus, IMO, because the OAL is greater than 26", which is what is considered the threshhold of concealability.


Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:44 am
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Guns4Liberty wrote:
jdhbulseye wrote:
I dont want to hijack the thread but this seems somewhat related. If it needs to move I will move it but I was just researching the RCW and a thought occurred to me. A Mossberg shockwave doesnt appear to meet the definition of "shotgun" in the RCW:

RCW 9.41.010 wrote:
(26) "Shotgun" means a weapon with one or more barrels, designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.


Which would seem to suggest that RCW 77.15.460 wouldnt apply (Loaded rifle or shotgun in vehicle prohibition)

And actually a strict reading of the terms defined under RCW 9.41.010:

RCW 9.41.010 wrote:
(20) "Pistol" means any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.


Would seem to suggest that according to Washington a mossberg shockwave is a pistol regardless of what the ATF says.

So the question I have is could you carry a loaded mossberg shockwave in your vehicle (not concealed on your person) if you have a CPL?

Of course the ATF warns in their letter on the shockwave that the NFA categorization "may" change if the shockwave is concealed on your person.

https://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Shockwave-Letter-from-ATF-3-2-17.pdf

A Mossberg Shockwave or Remington TAC-14 are pistols under WA state law. They cannot be anything else (don't meet the definitions).

The ATF saying that the FEDERAL classification could change if concealed is bogus, IMO, because the OAL is greater than 26", which is what is considered the threshhold of concealability.


Bogus in my opinion too but I still dont doubt a lawyer/judges ability to pretzel the law and logic to fit his predetermined outcome of a case.

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"Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." – T.S. Eliot

"The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - St. George Tucker

A careful definition of words would destroy half the agenda of the political left and scrutinizing evidence would destroy the other half. - Thomas Sowell

"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow...

For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." - Jeff Snyder

Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys. It realizes the ancient dream of the Jovian thunderbolt, and as such it is the embodiment of personal power. For this reason it exercises a curious influence over the minds of most men, and in its best examples it constitutes an object of affection unmatched by any other inanimate object.

Jeff Cooper
1997 The Art of the Rifle Page 1.

Spoiler: show
SUGGEST CASE BE SUBMITTED ON APPELLANT'S BRIEF. UNABLE TO OBTAIN ANY MONEY FROM CLIENTS TO BE PRESENT & ARGUE BRIEF.

The defense attorney's telegram to the clerk of the Supreme Court, March 29, 1939, in re United States. v. Miller.

You don't need to go to Law School to understand the constitutional implications of that.

“You can’t cut the throat of every cocksucker whose character it would improve.”
Spoiler: show
MadPick wrote:
Bob Ferguson is a total piece of shit. Of this, I am convinced.

cityslicker wrote:
I don't want to be told that I can't remove the tree by some tree-hugging pole smoker from the eat-a-dick foundation/Olympia/King County.

WARNING: I DEBATE IGNORAMUSES FOR MY OWN ENTERTAINMENT


Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:55 am
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