When does Open Carry become Concealed?

[JohnMBrowning]

I've been wondering this for a while.... WA is an open carry state - right? What happens, say in weather as of late, when you strap on your OC rig and throw a heavy shirt or coat on that inadvertently covers/hides/conceals the weapon fully or in part? I know you're good to go if you have a cpl... but if you don't, and someone catches a glimpse of the partially/poorly OC rig, does that change it into a visible concealed carry?

Would an OWB holster indicate that you are in fact open carrying even though the weapon is obscured by clothing?
How much of the gun needs to be visible when OCing to keep from being 'concealed'?

[jdhbulseye]

I've been wondering this for a while.... WA is an open carry state - right? What happens, say in weather as of late, when you strap on your OC rig and throw a heavy shirt or coat on that inadvertently covers/hides/conceals the weapon fully or in part? I know you're good to go if you have a cpl... but if you don't, and someone catches a glimpse of the partially/poorly OC rig, does that change it into a visible concealed carry?

In that scenario you could be screwed legally speaking.

Would an OWB holster indicate that you are in fact open carrying even though the weapon is obscured by clothing?

According to the letter of the law no, it wouldnt qualify as OC if it was partially or completely concealed even if it was in an OWB holster.

How much of the gun needs to be visible when OCing to keep from being 'concealed'?

Sounds like a question the answer to which would be highly variable depending on which lawyer/district attorney you asked.

MODS: P.S. this thread should likely move to the Open/Concealed/Why We Carry section of gun talk

[Guntrader]

Too many variables and it's very subjective.
Depends on the witness, the cop, the judge, and finally the jury.
Also the size of the gun, what you were wearing, holster, the weather........
It's a crap shoot.
Easier to just get a CPL.

[BadKarma]

There has not been a test case on this that I've heard of. I used to watch the OCDO board a bunch but it died out a few years ago.

It has been mentioned that if you "cover" any part of the gun that it could be considered concealed. Then you have to ask yourself, what does the holster do? It covers a part of the gun.

I highly suspect if you cover a gun with a shirt/jacket that a normal person would consider it concealed even if a part of it was visible. Or even if you had it in a OWB holster. WHile I conceal mostly, if the barrel pokes out below my jacket line, does that mean i'm now Open Carrying? I wouldn't think so but I suspect I would be locked up if a cop asked for my CPL and I didn't have one. Probably depends on the cop too.

The only relevant RCW I know of is this.
http://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050

[Guntrader]

Problem is, nowhere in 9.41.010 is the term 'concealed' defined.
http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.010

[BadKarma]

Problem is, nowhere in 9.41.010 is the term 'concealed' defined.
http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.010

Correct. By not defining it, it is left to interpretation by a cop and prosecutor. They by a jury of your "peers" if you take it that far.

[jdhbulseye]

I dont want to hijack the thread but this seems somewhat related. If it needs to move I will move it but I was just researching the RCW and a thought occurred to me. A Mossberg shockwave doesnt appear to meet the definition of "shotgun" in the RCW:

(26) "Shotgun" means a weapon with one or more barrels, designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

Which would seem to suggest that RCW 77.15.460 wouldnt apply (Loaded rifle or shotgun in vehicle prohibition)

And actually a strict reading of the terms defined under RCW 9.41.010:

(20) "Pistol" means any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.

Would seem to suggest that according to Washington a mossberg shockwave is a pistol regardless of what the ATF says.

So the question I have is could you carry a loaded mossberg shockwave in your vehicle (not concealed on your person) if you have a CPL?

Of course the ATF warns in their letter on the shockwave that the NFA categorization "may" change if the shockwave is concealed on your person.

https://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Shockwave-Letter-from-ATF-3-2-17.pdf

[Guntrader]

RCW was written by drunk chimpanzees, not supposed to make sense.
I've met a few of them.

[mislabeled]

RCW was written by drunk chimpanzees, not supposed to make sense.
I've met a few of them.

Well...given your avatar, this isn't entirely surprising.

[JohnMBrowning]

My bad for not realizing there is this sub forum....

So... its not just me.... there is in fact a large fuzzy grey area to an obscured OC rig. Sounds like its best to have your cpl on you even if you are OCing just to avoid any biased interpretation of the vague definition.

It almost seems that to properly OC, you have to basically 'display' your gun in a dickish fashion.

[delliottg]

RCW was written by drunk chimpanzees, not supposed to make sense.
I've met a few of them.

Having helped write one quite some time ago, the process is very convoluted, time consuming, and seemingly deliberately obfuscated to make it harder to understand the intent. My original document was about a page long, by the time the various lawyers had gotten through with it, it was more like three pages of unintelligible legalese.

[Guns4Liberty]

I dont want to hijack the thread but this seems somewhat related. If it needs to move I will move it but I was just researching the RCW and a thought occurred to me. A Mossberg shockwave doesnt appear to meet the definition of "shotgun" in the RCW:

(26) "Shotgun" means a weapon with one or more barrels, designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

Which would seem to suggest that RCW 77.15.460 wouldnt apply (Loaded rifle or shotgun in vehicle prohibition)

And actually a strict reading of the terms defined under RCW 9.41.010:

(20) "Pistol" means any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.

Would seem to suggest that according to Washington a mossberg shockwave is a pistol regardless of what the ATF says.

So the question I have is could you carry a loaded mossberg shockwave in your vehicle (not concealed on your person) if you have a CPL?

Of course the ATF warns in their letter on the shockwave that the NFA categorization "may" change if the shockwave is concealed on your person.

https://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Shockwave-Letter-from-ATF-3-2-17.pdf

A Mossberg Shockwave or Remington TAC-14 are pistols under WA state law. They cannot be anything else (don't meet the definitions).

The ATF saying that the FEDERAL classification could change if concealed is bogus, IMO, because the OAL is greater than 26", which is what is considered the threshhold of concealability.

[jdhbulseye]

I dont want to hijack the thread but this seems somewhat related. If it needs to move I will move it but I was just researching the RCW and a thought occurred to me. A Mossberg shockwave doesnt appear to meet the definition of "shotgun" in the RCW:

(26) "Shotgun" means a weapon with one or more barrels, designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

Which would seem to suggest that RCW 77.15.460 wouldnt apply (Loaded rifle or shotgun in vehicle prohibition)

And actually a strict reading of the terms defined under RCW 9.41.010:

(20) "Pistol" means any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.

Would seem to suggest that according to Washington a mossberg shockwave is a pistol regardless of what the ATF says.

So the question I have is could you carry a loaded mossberg shockwave in your vehicle (not concealed on your person) if you have a CPL?

Of course the ATF warns in their letter on the shockwave that the NFA categorization "may" change if the shockwave is concealed on your person.

https://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Shockwave-Letter-from-ATF-3-2-17.pdf

A Mossberg Shockwave or Remington TAC-14 are pistols under WA state law. They cannot be anything else (don't meet the definitions).

The ATF saying that the FEDERAL classification could change if concealed is bogus, IMO, because the OAL is greater than 26", which is what is considered the threshhold of concealability.

Bogus in my opinion too but I still dont doubt a lawyer/judges ability to pretzel the law and logic to fit his predetermined outcome of a case.