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ATF Changes it's Mind About Length w/Braces
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RocketScott
Site Supporter
Location: Kentucky Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 Posts: 11049
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ATF RESCINDS PRIOR METHODS TO MEASURE A FIREARM’S OVERALL LENGTH WHEN EQUIPPED WITH A STABILIZING BRACEhttps://blog.princelaw.com/2019/07/05/atf-rescinds-prior-methods-to-measure-a-firearms-overall-length-when-equipped-with-a-stabilizing-brace/Quote: Late yesterday, I received an email from an individual containing a letter from ATF which was a response to a correspondence requesting the correct method to “measure a firearm with a ‘stabilizing brace’ and folding adaptor.” It was explained that the correspondence was sent in the form of an email over a year ago and that the person had received a response via email shortly after it was sent. This letter was unsolicited and came over a year after the original request and response.
In the letter, ATF states that “[Firearms Technology Industry Services Branch] FTISB has previously determined that ‘stabilizing braces’ may be assembled on firearms as accessories…In contrast to stocks on rifles or shotguns…’stabilizing braces’ are merely accessories and not relevant to the classification of a ‘pistol’ under the statutory definition. That is, a folding stock on a rifle or shotgun is included in overall length measurements because the firearm must be ‘designed or redesigned….and intended to be fired from the shoulder‘ to be so classified. The stock is therefore an essential element in the statutory definition.”
Based on the letter, ATF is taking the position that because a stabilizing brace is not an integral part of the firearm, it is not relevant to the overall length measurement. Why does this matter? A number of individuals have been building AR pistols or other similar pistols that have utilized a stabilizing brace. Some have opted to add a vertical foregrip. However, based on this interpretation, those people may find that they have manufactured an “AOW”, which is subject to the restrictions of the National Firearms Act (“NFA”).
To fully understand, it is important to look at the definitions. The term “any other weapon” is defined to include... So if you want to add a vertical grip to your braced pistol it either needs to be over 26", not including the brace, or pay the $200 for a stamp to make an AOW Once it's made into an AOW it can be transferred with a $5 stamp
_________________ You may be right, I may be crazy, but it just may be a lunatic you're looking for
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:52 am |
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AR15L
Site Supporter
Location: Nampa, Idaho Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 Posts: 19386
Real Name: Rick
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Vertical grip (I agree) What about this?
_________________ ‘What’s the point of being a citizen if an illegal gets all the benefits’
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:10 am |
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RocketScott
Site Supporter
Location: Kentucky Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 Posts: 11049
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Knock yourself out. That's just for hanging it up right?
Go read the letter from the ATF. It only specifies how the firearm should be measured, not what accessories can be used
Is putting panels on the front of a pistol to add grip turning it into an AOW? IDK
_________________ You may be right, I may be crazy, but it just may be a lunatic you're looking for
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:13 am |
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MadPick
Site Admin
Location: Renton, WA Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 Posts: 51919
Real Name: Steve
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Thanks for posting this, Scott.
How fucking frustrating is this system, though . . . the ATF just makes up the rules as they see fit, and can change their minds at will, and there is no good communication system for any of it.
So now there are umpteen people out there with braced pistols and VFGs, and all could potentially get convicted of a "crime." That's fucked.
_________________SteveBenefactor Life Member, National Rifle AssociationLife Member, Second Amendment FoundationPatriot & Life Member, Gun Owners of AmericaLife Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear ArmsLegal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy CoalitionMember, NAGR/NFGRPlease support the organizations that support all of us.Leave it cleaner than you found it.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:22 am |
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Mr. Q
Site Supporter
Location: S. Everett Joined: Thu May 2, 2013 Posts: 3042
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At least it’s not something that’s incredibly difficult or expensive to pull off....still, wtf man. This is insanity.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:28 am |
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UpDog
Site Supporter
Location: Burien Joined: Wed Oct 5, 2011 Posts: 3302
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Fuck the idiot that asked the atf.
_________________ Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:00 am |
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Sinus211
Site Moderator
Location: Marysville Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 Posts: 13483
Real Name: Mike
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Oh good, more confusion regarding potential felonies.
_________________Licensed/Bonded/Insured Hardwood Floor Installer/Finisher http://www.hardwoodfloorsnw.com/
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:06 am |
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Daveygravey89
Site Supporter
Location: Eatonville Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 Posts: 1266
Real Name: Dave
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Anyone ever question staying in the gun game ? Lol. But seriously life would be so much easier than this damn hobby that keeps getting shit on from every angle lol. I won’t get rid of mine but I just might be done buying .....
_________________ 1 Corinthians 16:13-14 13 Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be courageous; be strong. 14 Do everything in love.
2 Corinthians 4:16 16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:15 am |
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AR15L
Site Supporter
Location: Nampa, Idaho Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 Posts: 19386
Real Name: Rick
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Daveygravey89 wrote: Anyone ever question staying in the gun game ? Lol. But seriously life would be so much easier than this damn hobby that keeps getting shit on from every angle lol. I won’t get rid of mine but I just might be done buying ..... I've been thinking the same thing for a while now. Just too afraid of "coming out of the closet".
_________________ ‘What’s the point of being a citizen if an illegal gets all the benefits’
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:17 am |
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MadPick
Site Admin
Location: Renton, WA Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 Posts: 51919
Real Name: Steve
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Daveygravey89 wrote: Anyone ever question staying in the gun game ? Lol. But seriously life would be so much easier than this damn hobby that keeps getting shit on from every angle lol. Yeah . . . I've had this thought many times. Not just easier, but WAY less stressful.
_________________SteveBenefactor Life Member, National Rifle AssociationLife Member, Second Amendment FoundationPatriot & Life Member, Gun Owners of AmericaLife Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear ArmsLegal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy CoalitionMember, NAGR/NFGRPlease support the organizations that support all of us.Leave it cleaner than you found it.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:18 am |
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leadcounsel
Site Supporter
Location: Can't say Joined: Sun Sep 7, 2014 Posts: 8134
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It wouldn't be so bad if:
A) "Shall Not Infringe" wasn't such apparently complicated to understand.
and
B) The rules made some logical sense, like "Oh, this is clearly [insert "too dangerous" or "not safe" or otherwise - not that this should negate "A" above, but at least offers some logical clarity - like "fully auto" or "hand grenades" etc.]...
But the total arbitrary length definitions and accessories for pistols v rifles v AOW v SBR v SBS v diameter and rifling and pistols shoot rifle bullets and rifles shoot pistol bullets and so forth... Then sprinkle with a dash of 922 and it's a total mess.
The whole litany of arbitrary definitions needs to be thrown out. Replace with them all just firearms with non-legal subdefinitions of pistols, rifles, and shotguns in semi auto, bolt, and pump configurations based on general size and design. Keep it simple. Shoot any diameter, any attachments, and any configurations.
Laws must be clear and have non-arbitrary meanings. Otherwise the definitions as they stand now are just ripe for abuse and confusion.
_________________ I defend the 2A. US Army Combat Veteran and Paratrooper: OIF Veteran. BSM and MSM recipient. NRA Lifetime. Entertainment purposes only. I'm a lawyer, but have not offered you legal advice.
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:31 am |
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mmalleck
Site Supporter
Location: Bellevue area - WA Joined: Wed Jan 9, 2013 Posts: 1425
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When a commissioned officer takes the oath, he swears "To support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies foreign and domestic." We know about these foreign enemies of the US Constitution, but who are the "domestics"? For my money the most conspicuous domestic enemy whom I have sworn to confound is the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. It is not clear to me that the BATF does anything that needs doing. Contrarily, it does a great deal that does not need doing. I do not know how many people are currently employed by this unpleasant agency, but I do feel it to be my duty to support the US Constitution against domestic enemies by advocating abolition of the BATF. I have been told by people in Washington that when I make statements like this, I am laying my head on the block. So be it. Better men than I have done just that.
Jeff Cooper (1920-2006) Jeff Cooper's Commentaries - Volume Five
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:33 am |
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hkcavalier
Site Supporter
Location: NE WA Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 Posts: 5470
Real Name: The Dude
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No human gun is illegal! First few lines had me scared...this guy is nowhere near 26" folded...but no VFG.
_________________ "Wherever you go, there you are."
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:38 am |
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RocketScott
Site Supporter
Location: Kentucky Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 Posts: 11049
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hkcavalier wrote: No human gun is illegal! First few lines had me scared...this guy is nowhere near 26" folded...but no VFG. Clearly that's concealable and would be twice doubly deadlier if it had a VFG "Sir, is that a banana mag in your pants or are you just happy to see me"
_________________ You may be right, I may be crazy, but it just may be a lunatic you're looking for
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:00 am |
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A.O.
Site Supporter
Location: Tacoma :( Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 Posts: 2403
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Freedom finds a way... Here is a handstop so you dont go too far forward and a hand stop so you can pull it in to reduce felt recoil... whether you can grip both like a VFG.... thats for you to decide...
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Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:11 am |
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