WaGuns.org :: View topic - ATF Changes it's Mind About Length w/Braces

Quote:

Late yesterday, I received an email from an individual containing a letter from ATF which was a response to a correspondence requesting the correct method to “measure a firearm with a ‘stabilizing brace’ and folding adaptor.” It was explained that the correspondence was sent in the form of an email over a year ago and that the person had received a response via email shortly after it was sent. This letter was unsolicited and came over a year after the original request and response.

In the letter, ATF states that “[Firearms Technology Industry Services Branch] FTISB has previously determined that ‘stabilizing braces’ may be assembled on firearms as accessories…In contrast to stocks on rifles or shotguns…’stabilizing braces’ are merely accessories and not relevant to the classification of a ‘pistol’ under the statutory definition. That is, a folding stock on a rifle or shotgun is included in overall length measurements because the firearm must be ‘designed or redesigned….and intended to be fired from the shoulder‘ to be so classified. The stock is therefore an essential element in the statutory definition.”

Based on the letter, ATF is taking the position that because a stabilizing brace is not an integral part of the firearm, it is not relevant to the overall length measurement. Why does this matter? A number of individuals have been building AR pistols or other similar pistols that have utilized a stabilizing brace. Some have opted to add a vertical foregrip. However, based on this interpretation, those people may find that they have manufactured an “AOW”, which is subject to the restrictions of the National Firearms Act (“NFA”).

To fully understand, it is important to look at the definitions. The term “any other weapon” is defined to include...

Author:	RocketScott [ Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:52 am ]
Post subject:	ATF Changes it's Mind About Length w/Braces
ATF RESCINDS PRIOR METHODS TO MEASURE A FIREARM’S OVERALL LENGTH WHEN EQUIPPED WITH A STABILIZING BRACE https://blog.princelaw.com/2019/07/05/atf-rescinds-prior-methods-to-measure-a-firearms-overall-length-when-equipped-with-a-stabilizing-brace/ Quote: Late yesterday, I received an email from an individual containing a letter from ATF which was a response to a correspondence requesting the correct method to “measure a firearm with a ‘stabilizing brace’ and folding adaptor.” It was explained that the correspondence was sent in the form of an email over a year ago and that the person had received a response via email shortly after it was sent. This letter was unsolicited and came over a year after the original request and response. In the letter, ATF states that “[Firearms Technology Industry Services Branch] FTISB has previously determined that ‘stabilizing braces’ may be assembled on firearms as accessories…In contrast to stocks on rifles or shotguns…’stabilizing braces’ are merely accessories and not relevant to the classification of a ‘pistol’ under the statutory definition. That is, a folding stock on a rifle or shotgun is included in overall length measurements because the firearm must be ‘designed or redesigned….and intended to be fired from the shoulder‘ to be so classified. The stock is therefore an essential element in the statutory definition.” Based on the letter, ATF is taking the position that because a stabilizing brace is not an integral part of the firearm, it is not relevant to the overall length measurement. Why does this matter? A number of individuals have been building AR pistols or other similar pistols that have utilized a stabilizing brace. Some have opted to add a vertical foregrip. However, based on this interpretation, those people may find that they have manufactured an “AOW”, which is subject to the restrictions of the National Firearms Act (“NFA”). To fully understand, it is important to look at the definitions. The term “any other weapon” is defined to include... So if you want to add a vertical grip to your braced pistol it either needs to be over 26", not including the brace, or pay the $200 for a stamp to make an AOW Once it's made into an AOW it can be transferred with a $5 stamp

Author:	AR15L [ Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ATF Changes it's Mind About Length w/Braces
Vertical grip (I agree) What about this?

Author:	RocketScott [ Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ATF Changes it's Mind About Length w/Braces
Knock yourself out. That's just for hanging it up right? Go read the letter from the ATF. It only specifies how the firearm should be measured, not what accessories can be used Is putting panels on the front of a pistol to add grip turning it into an AOW? IDK

Author:	MadPick [ Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ATF Changes it's Mind About Length w/Braces
Thanks for posting this, Scott. How fucking frustrating is this system, though . . . the ATF just makes up the rules as they see fit, and can change their minds at will, and there is no good communication system for any of it. So now there are umpteen people out there with braced pistols and VFGs, and all could potentially get convicted of a "crime." That's fucked.

Author:	Mr. Q [ Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ATF Changes it's Mind About Length w/Braces
At least it’s not something that’s incredibly difficult or expensive to pull off....still, wtf man. This is insanity. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Author:	UpDog [ Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ATF Changes it's Mind About Length w/Braces
Fuck the idiot that asked the atf.

Author:	Sinus211 [ Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ATF Changes it's Mind About Length w/Braces
Oh good, more confusion regarding potential felonies.

Author:	Daveygravey89 [ Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ATF Changes it's Mind About Length w/Braces
Anyone ever question staying in the gun game ? Lol. But seriously life would be so much easier than this damn hobby that keeps getting shit on from every angle lol. I won’t get rid of mine but I just might be done buying .....

Author:	AR15L [ Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ATF Changes it's Mind About Length w/Braces
Daveygravey89 wrote: Anyone ever question staying in the gun game ? Lol. But seriously life would be so much easier than this damn hobby that keeps getting shit on from every angle lol. I won’t get rid of mine but I just might be done buying ..... I've been thinking the same thing for a while now. Just too afraid of "coming out of the closet".

Author:	MadPick [ Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ATF Changes it's Mind About Length w/Braces
Daveygravey89 wrote: Anyone ever question staying in the gun game ? Lol. But seriously life would be so much easier than this damn hobby that keeps getting shit on from every angle lol. Yeah . . . I've had this thought many times. Not just easier, but WAY less stressful.

Author:	leadcounsel [ Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ATF Changes it's Mind About Length w/Braces
It wouldn't be so bad if: A) "Shall Not Infringe" wasn't such apparently complicated to understand. and B) The rules made some logical sense, like "Oh, this is clearly [insert "too dangerous" or "not safe" or otherwise - not that this should negate "A" above, but at least offers some logical clarity - like "fully auto" or "hand grenades" etc.]... But the total arbitrary length definitions and accessories for pistols v rifles v AOW v SBR v SBS v diameter and rifling and pistols shoot rifle bullets and rifles shoot pistol bullets and so forth... Then sprinkle with a dash of 922 and it's a total mess. The whole litany of arbitrary definitions needs to be thrown out. Replace with them all just firearms with non-legal subdefinitions of pistols, rifles, and shotguns in semi auto, bolt, and pump configurations based on general size and design. Keep it simple. Shoot any diameter, any attachments, and any configurations. Laws must be clear and have non-arbitrary meanings. Otherwise the definitions as they stand now are just ripe for abuse and confusion.

Author:	mmalleck [ Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ATF Changes it's Mind About Length w/Braces
When a commissioned officer takes the oath, he swears "To support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies foreign and domestic." We know about these foreign enemies of the US Constitution, but who are the "domestics"? For my money the most conspicuous domestic enemy whom I have sworn to confound is the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. It is not clear to me that the BATF does anything that needs doing. Contrarily, it does a great deal that does not need doing. I do not know how many people are currently employed by this unpleasant agency, but I do feel it to be my duty to support the US Constitution against domestic enemies by advocating abolition of the BATF. I have been told by people in Washington that when I make statements like this, I am laying my head on the block. So be it. Better men than I have done just that. Jeff Cooper (1920-2006) Jeff Cooper's Commentaries - Volume Five

Author:	hkcavalier [ Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ATF Changes it's Mind About Length w/Braces
No ~~human~~ gun is illegal! First few lines had me scared...this guy is nowhere near 26" folded...but no VFG.

Author:	RocketScott [ Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ATF Changes it's Mind About Length w/Braces
hkcavalier wrote: No ~~human~~ gun is illegal! First few lines had me scared...this guy is nowhere near 26" folded...but no VFG. Clearly that's concealable and would be twice doubly deadlier if it had a VFG "Sir, is that a banana mag in your pants or are you just happy to see me"

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Author:	A.O. [ Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ATF Changes it's Mind About Length w/Braces
Freedom finds a way... Here is a handstop so you dont go too far forward and a hand stop so you can pull it in to reduce felt recoil... whether you can grip both like a VFG.... thats for you to decide...