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 Did a lawyer ever comment on the law regarding..... 
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Binary triggers?

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(17) "Machine gun" means any firearm known as a machine gun, mechanical rifle, submachine gun, or any other mechanism or instrument not requiring that the trigger be pressed for each shot and having a reservoir clip, disc, drum, belt, or other separable mechanical device for storing, carrying, or supplying ammunition which can be loaded into the firearm, mechanism, or instrument, and fired therefrom at the rate of five or more shots per second.


Seems to me that less than 5 rounds per second means not a machine gun?

FS-FNRL on ARFCOM also pointed out, maybe erroneously, IMO, as the trigger is being pressed mechanically by a spring and not manually....

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In the definition of Machine Gun it also says that the trigger be PRESSED, which is pressure in a direction. I thought the binary trigger system released the hammer when the trigger was pressed toward the stock, and again when pressed toward the muzzle. This it is semi-auto IMO.

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Wed May 30, 2018 11:14 pm
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While I am not a lawyer....well....

Since a single function of the trigger is defined as the pulling of the trigger to discharge a round, and since with a binary trigger you do NOT have to pull the trigger to fire a second round...

(""Machine gun" means any firearm known as a machine gun, mechanical rifle, submachine gun, or any other mechanism or instrument not requiring that the trigger be pressed for each shot and having a reservoir clip, disc, drum, belt, or other separable mechanical device for storing, carrying, or supplying ammunition which can be loaded into the firearm, mechanism, or instrument, and fired therefrom at the rate of five or more shots per second."...from RCW 9.41)

...the binary trigger is not legal for possession or use in the State of Washington.

Sorry...I want one too.....

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Thu May 31, 2018 2:27 am
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There are 2 operative AND clauses..

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Thu May 31, 2018 9:01 am
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guess you can buy one and see if you go to jail. I am sure Ferguson would love to go to court and try you.

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Thu May 31, 2018 6:28 pm
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TechnoWeenie wrote:
There are 2 operative AND clauses..

:plusone:

Reading comprehension is key.
Quote:
"Machine gun" means any firearm known as a machine gun, mechanical rifle, submachine gun, or any other mechanism or instrument not requiring that the trigger be pressed for each shot and having a reservoir clip, disc, drum, belt, or other separable mechanical device for storing, carrying, or supplying ammunition which can be loaded into the firearm, mechanism, or instrument, and fired therefrom at the rate of five or more shots per second.

Because the RCW uses "and" and not "or", there are 3 criteria that must be satisfied for a firearm/device to be considered a machine gun:
  1. Doesn't require trigger to be pressed for each shot
  2. Is fed ammunition by a separable mechanical device
  3. Fires at a rate of five or more shots per second

Therefore, if a firearm/device fails to satisfy any one of those 3 criteria, then it does not meet the definition of machine gun.


Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:47 am
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Guns4Liberty wrote:
TechnoWeenie wrote:
There are 2 operative AND clauses..

:plusone:

Reading comprehension is key.
Quote:
"Machine gun" means any firearm known as a machine gun, mechanical rifle, submachine gun, or any other mechanism or instrument not requiring that the trigger be pressed for each shot and having a reservoir clip, disc, drum, belt, or other separable mechanical device for storing, carrying, or supplying ammunition which can be loaded into the firearm, mechanism, or instrument, and fired therefrom at the rate of five or more shots per second.

Because the RCW uses "and" and not "or", there are 3 criteria that must be satisfied for a firearm/device to be considered a machine gun:
  1. Doesn't require trigger to be pressed for each shot
  2. Is fed ammunition by a separable mechanical device
  3. Fires at a rate of five or more shots per second

Therefore, if a firearm/device fails to satisfy any one of those 3 criteria, then it does not meet the definition of machine gun.


But a Binary trigger in an AR15 does meet all 3 of those definitions.


Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:50 am
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Massivedesign wrote:
But a Binary trigger in an AR15 does meet all 3 of those definitions.

Does it though? I'm not convinced it satisfies #1 - Doesn't require trigger to be pressed for each shot. Technically, neither the first nor the second shot can be fired without a deliberate (and separate) finger manipulation of the trigger. That separate action for shot #2 may very well be the key to this device falling outside the purview of this RCW. I'm not saying positively that it is, but a case can be made.


Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:56 am
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I'm thinking rounds per sec......On an eVO...

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Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:28 am
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Guns4Liberty wrote:
Massivedesign wrote:
But a Binary trigger in an AR15 does meet all 3 of those definitions.

Does it though? I'm not convinced it satisfies #1 - Doesn't require trigger to be pressed for each shot. Technically, neither the first nor the second shot can be fired without a deliberate (and separate) finger manipulation of the trigger. That separate action for shot #2 may very well be the key to this device falling outside the purview of this RCW. I'm not saying positively that it is, but a case can be made.


Let's break it down to the 3 components.
1) ...not requiring that the trigger be pressed for each shot: The binary trigger doesn't require the trigger to be pressed to send the 2nd round: Qualification #1, PASSED
2) ...having a reservoir clip, disc, drum, belt, or other separable mechanical device... blah blah: Qualification #2, PASSED
3) .... fired therefrom at the rate of five or more shots per second.: Franklin Armory said the Binary can fire at a rate of around 900R/M (15R/S): Qualification #3, PASSED

All 3 of the qualifying statements passed.


Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:34 pm
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Massivedesign wrote:
Guns4Liberty wrote:
Massivedesign wrote:
But a Binary trigger in an AR15 does meet all 3 of those definitions.

Does it though? I'm not convinced it satisfies #1 - Doesn't require trigger to be pressed for each shot. Technically, neither the first nor the second shot can be fired without a deliberate (and separate) finger manipulation of the trigger. That separate action for shot #2 may very well be the key to this device falling outside the purview of this RCW. I'm not saying positively that it is, but a case can be made.


Let's break it down to the 3 components.
1) ...not requiring that the trigger be pressed for each shot: The binary trigger doesn't require the trigger to be pressed to send the 2nd round: Qualification #1, PASSED
2) ...having a reservoir clip, disc, drum, belt, or other separable mechanical device... blah blah: Qualification #2, PASSED
3) .... fired therefrom at the rate of five or more shots per second.: Franklin Armory said the Binary can fire at a rate of around 900R/M (15R/S): Qualification #3, PASSED

All 3 of the qualifying statements passed.


Unfortunately, true. In addition, some of the manufacturers I have checked specifically say that binary triggers will NOT be sold to Washington State residents. Brownell's says, on the listing for the Franklin Armory trigger that it cannot be sold to the residents of WA State.

Bummer. I want one....but can't have. Durn it.

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Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:10 pm
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Massivedesign wrote:
3) .... fired therefrom at the rate of five or more shots per second.: Franklin Armory said the Binary can fire at a rate of around 900R/M (15R/S): Qualification #3, PASSED


It doesn't say CAPABLE of being fired at that rate, though, it says "fired therefrom" at that rate.

So would the binary trigger be legal if you didn't shoot five shots per second?

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Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:40 pm
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Massivedesign wrote:
Guns4Liberty wrote:
Massivedesign wrote:
But a Binary trigger in an AR15 does meet all 3 of those definitions.

Does it though? I'm not convinced it satisfies #1 - Doesn't require trigger to be pressed for each shot. Technically, neither the first nor the second shot can be fired without a deliberate (and separate) finger manipulation of the trigger. That separate action for shot #2 may very well be the key to this device falling outside the purview of this RCW. I'm not saying positively that it is, but a case can be made.


Let's break it down to the 3 components.
1) ...not requiring that the trigger be pressed for each shot: The binary trigger doesn't require the trigger to be pressed to send the 2nd round: Qualification #1, PASSED
2) ...having a reservoir clip, disc, drum, belt, or other separable mechanical device... blah blah: Qualification #2, PASSED
3) .... fired therefrom at the rate of five or more shots per second.: Franklin Armory said the Binary can fire at a rate of around 900R/M (15R/S): Qualification #3, PASSED

All 3 of the qualifying statements passed.


RPM varies per platform, does it not? 15 rounds per second?!... I dunno.... I gotta call marketing BS..

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Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:42 pm
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MadPick wrote:
Massivedesign wrote:
3) .... fired therefrom at the rate of five or more shots per second.: Franklin Armory said the Binary can fire at a rate of around 900R/M (15R/S): Qualification #3, PASSED


It doesn't say CAPABLE of being fired at that rate, though, it says "fired therefrom" at that rate.

So would the binary trigger be legal if you didn't shoot five shots per second?


I was thinking about that too.

Quote:
which can be loaded into the firearm, mechanism, or instrument, and fired


I believe that the intent is "capable of" (of course) so removing the words "firearm, mechanism, or instrument," leaves
Quote:
which can be loaded and fired

That removes that comma and clarifies the meaning. IMHO.


Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:46 pm
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Technically the trigger is pressed by the trigger spring after releasing finger pressure.

The law doesn’t say that your finger has to do the pressing.


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Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:20 pm
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RocketScott wrote:
Technically the trigger is pressed by the trigger spring after releasing finger pressure.

The law doesn’t say that your finger has to do the pressing.


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Technically... You could justify full-auto by the same argument.

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Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:29 pm
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