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It is currently Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:48 am
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Nothing contained in this section shall be construed as legal advice. All members and guests are advised to perform due diligence in regards to laws and legal actions.
Did a lawyer ever comment on the law regarding.....
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TechnoWeenie
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Location: Nova Laboratories Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 Posts: 18454
Real Name: Johnny 5
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Binary triggers? Quote: (17) "Machine gun" means any firearm known as a machine gun, mechanical rifle, submachine gun, or any other mechanism or instrument not requiring that the trigger be pressed for each shot and having a reservoir clip, disc, drum, belt, or other separable mechanical device for storing, carrying, or supplying ammunition which can be loaded into the firearm, mechanism, or instrument, and fired therefrom at the rate of five or more shots per second. Seems to me that less than 5 rounds per second means not a machine gun? FS-FNRL on ARFCOM also pointed out, maybe erroneously, IMO, as the trigger is being pressed mechanically by a spring and not manually.... Quote: In the definition of Machine Gun it also says that the trigger be PRESSED, which is pressure in a direction. I thought the binary trigger system released the hammer when the trigger was pressed toward the stock, and again when pressed toward the muzzle. This it is semi-auto IMO.
_________________NO DISASSEMBLE!Thomas Paine wrote: "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
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Wed May 30, 2018 11:14 pm |
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Powderman
Location: WA State Joined: Fri Feb 8, 2013 Posts: 658
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While I am not a lawyer....well....
Since a single function of the trigger is defined as the pulling of the trigger to discharge a round, and since with a binary trigger you do NOT have to pull the trigger to fire a second round...
(""Machine gun" means any firearm known as a machine gun, mechanical rifle, submachine gun, or any other mechanism or instrument not requiring that the trigger be pressed for each shot and having a reservoir clip, disc, drum, belt, or other separable mechanical device for storing, carrying, or supplying ammunition which can be loaded into the firearm, mechanism, or instrument, and fired therefrom at the rate of five or more shots per second."...from RCW 9.41)
...the binary trigger is not legal for possession or use in the State of Washington.
Sorry...I want one too.....
_________________ I hunt the things that go bump in the night....
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Thu May 31, 2018 2:27 am |
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TechnoWeenie
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Location: Nova Laboratories Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 Posts: 18454
Real Name: Johnny 5
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There are 2 operative AND clauses..
_________________NO DISASSEMBLE!Thomas Paine wrote: "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
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Thu May 31, 2018 9:01 am |
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Ops
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Location: Piece/Clallam Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 Posts: 10688
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guess you can buy one and see if you go to jail. I am sure Ferguson would love to go to court and try you.
_________________Yaki's - last journeyPromote a Growth Mindset. Don't let a fixed mindset not allow change for the better.
pow·er trip - noun - a self-aggrandizing quest for ever-increasing control over others.
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Thu May 31, 2018 6:28 pm |
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Guns4Liberty
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Location: Lynnwood/Bothell Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 Posts: 8562
Real Name: Curtis
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TechnoWeenie wrote: There are 2 operative AND clauses.. Reading comprehension is key. Quote: "Machine gun" means any firearm known as a machine gun, mechanical rifle, submachine gun, or any other mechanism or instrument not requiring that the trigger be pressed for each shot and having a reservoir clip, disc, drum, belt, or other separable mechanical device for storing, carrying, or supplying ammunition which can be loaded into the firearm, mechanism, or instrument, and fired therefrom at the rate of five or more shots per second. Because the RCW uses "and" and not "or", there are 3 criteria that must be satisfied for a firearm/device to be considered a machine gun: - Doesn't require trigger to be pressed for each shot
- Is fed ammunition by a separable mechanical device
- Fires at a rate of five or more shots per second
Therefore, if a firearm/device fails to satisfy any one of those 3 criteria, then it does not meet the definition of machine gun.
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Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:47 am |
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Massivedesign
Site Admin
Location: Olympia, WA Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 Posts: 38307
Real Name: Dan
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Guns4Liberty wrote: TechnoWeenie wrote: There are 2 operative AND clauses.. Reading comprehension is key. Quote: "Machine gun" means any firearm known as a machine gun, mechanical rifle, submachine gun, or any other mechanism or instrument not requiring that the trigger be pressed for each shot and having a reservoir clip, disc, drum, belt, or other separable mechanical device for storing, carrying, or supplying ammunition which can be loaded into the firearm, mechanism, or instrument, and fired therefrom at the rate of five or more shots per second. Because the RCW uses "and" and not "or", there are 3 criteria that must be satisfied for a firearm/device to be considered a machine gun: - Doesn't require trigger to be pressed for each shot
- Is fed ammunition by a separable mechanical device
- Fires at a rate of five or more shots per second
Therefore, if a firearm/device fails to satisfy any one of those 3 criteria, then it does not meet the definition of machine gun. But a Binary trigger in an AR15 does meet all 3 of those definitions.
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Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:50 am |
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Guns4Liberty
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Location: Lynnwood/Bothell Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 Posts: 8562
Real Name: Curtis
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Massivedesign wrote: But a Binary trigger in an AR15 does meet all 3 of those definitions. Does it though? I'm not convinced it satisfies #1 - Doesn't require trigger to be pressed for each shot. Technically, neither the first nor the second shot can be fired without a deliberate (and separate) finger manipulation of the trigger. That separate action for shot #2 may very well be the key to this device falling outside the purview of this RCW. I'm not saying positively that it is, but a case can be made.
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Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:56 am |
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TechnoWeenie
Site Supporter
Location: Nova Laboratories Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 Posts: 18454
Real Name: Johnny 5
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I'm thinking rounds per sec......On an eVO...
_________________NO DISASSEMBLE!Thomas Paine wrote: "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
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Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:28 am |
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Massivedesign
Site Admin
Location: Olympia, WA Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 Posts: 38307
Real Name: Dan
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Guns4Liberty wrote: Massivedesign wrote: But a Binary trigger in an AR15 does meet all 3 of those definitions. Does it though? I'm not convinced it satisfies #1 - Doesn't require trigger to be pressed for each shot. Technically, neither the first nor the second shot can be fired without a deliberate (and separate) finger manipulation of the trigger. That separate action for shot #2 may very well be the key to this device falling outside the purview of this RCW. I'm not saying positively that it is, but a case can be made. Let's break it down to the 3 components. 1) ...not requiring that the trigger be pressed for each shot: The binary trigger doesn't require the trigger to be pressed to send the 2nd round: Qualification #1, PASSED 2) ...having a reservoir clip, disc, drum, belt, or other separable mechanical device... blah blah: Qualification #2, PASSED 3) .... fired therefrom at the rate of five or more shots per second.: Franklin Armory said the Binary can fire at a rate of around 900R/M (15R/S): Qualification #3, PASSED All 3 of the qualifying statements passed.
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Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:34 pm |
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Powderman
Location: WA State Joined: Fri Feb 8, 2013 Posts: 658
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Massivedesign wrote: Guns4Liberty wrote: Massivedesign wrote: But a Binary trigger in an AR15 does meet all 3 of those definitions. Does it though? I'm not convinced it satisfies #1 - Doesn't require trigger to be pressed for each shot. Technically, neither the first nor the second shot can be fired without a deliberate (and separate) finger manipulation of the trigger. That separate action for shot #2 may very well be the key to this device falling outside the purview of this RCW. I'm not saying positively that it is, but a case can be made. Let's break it down to the 3 components. 1) ...not requiring that the trigger be pressed for each shot: The binary trigger doesn't require the trigger to be pressed to send the 2nd round: Qualification #1, PASSED 2) ...having a reservoir clip, disc, drum, belt, or other separable mechanical device... blah blah: Qualification #2, PASSED 3) .... fired therefrom at the rate of five or more shots per second.: Franklin Armory said the Binary can fire at a rate of around 900R/M (15R/S): Qualification #3, PASSED All 3 of the qualifying statements passed. Unfortunately, true. In addition, some of the manufacturers I have checked specifically say that binary triggers will NOT be sold to Washington State residents. Brownell's says, on the listing for the Franklin Armory trigger that it cannot be sold to the residents of WA State. Bummer. I want one....but can't have. Durn it.
_________________ I hunt the things that go bump in the night....
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Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:10 pm |
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MadPick
Site Admin
Location: Renton, WA Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 Posts: 52038
Real Name: Steve
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Massivedesign wrote: 3) .... fired therefrom at the rate of five or more shots per second.: Franklin Armory said the Binary can fire at a rate of around 900R/M (15R/S): Qualification #3, PASSED It doesn't say CAPABLE of being fired at that rate, though, it says "fired therefrom" at that rate. So would the binary trigger be legal if you didn't shoot five shots per second?
_________________SteveBenefactor Life Member, National Rifle AssociationLife Member, Second Amendment FoundationPatriot & Life Member, Gun Owners of AmericaLife Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear ArmsLegal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy CoalitionMember, NAGR/NFGRPlease support the organizations that support all of us.Leave it cleaner than you found it.
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Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:40 pm |
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TechnoWeenie
Site Supporter
Location: Nova Laboratories Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 Posts: 18454
Real Name: Johnny 5
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Massivedesign wrote: Guns4Liberty wrote: Massivedesign wrote: But a Binary trigger in an AR15 does meet all 3 of those definitions. Does it though? I'm not convinced it satisfies #1 - Doesn't require trigger to be pressed for each shot. Technically, neither the first nor the second shot can be fired without a deliberate (and separate) finger manipulation of the trigger. That separate action for shot #2 may very well be the key to this device falling outside the purview of this RCW. I'm not saying positively that it is, but a case can be made. Let's break it down to the 3 components. 1) ...not requiring that the trigger be pressed for each shot: The binary trigger doesn't require the trigger to be pressed to send the 2nd round: Qualification #1, PASSED 2) ...having a reservoir clip, disc, drum, belt, or other separable mechanical device... blah blah: Qualification #2, PASSED 3) .... fired therefrom at the rate of five or more shots per second.: Franklin Armory said the Binary can fire at a rate of around 900R/M (15R/S): Qualification #3, PASSED All 3 of the qualifying statements passed. RPM varies per platform, does it not? 15 rounds per second?!... I dunno.... I gotta call marketing BS..
_________________NO DISASSEMBLE!Thomas Paine wrote: "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
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Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:42 pm |
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PMB
In Memoriam
Joined: Wed Mar 6, 2013 Posts: 12018
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MadPick wrote: Massivedesign wrote: 3) .... fired therefrom at the rate of five or more shots per second.: Franklin Armory said the Binary can fire at a rate of around 900R/M (15R/S): Qualification #3, PASSED It doesn't say CAPABLE of being fired at that rate, though, it says "fired therefrom" at that rate. So would the binary trigger be legal if you didn't shoot five shots per second? I was thinking about that too. Quote: which can be loaded into the firearm, mechanism, or instrument, and fired I believe that the intent is "capable of" (of course) so removing the words "firearm, mechanism, or instrument," leaves Quote: which can be loaded and fired That removes that comma and clarifies the meaning. IMHO.
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Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:46 pm |
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RocketScott
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Location: Kentucky Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 Posts: 11088
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Technically the trigger is pressed by the trigger spring after releasing finger pressure.
The law doesn’t say that your finger has to do the pressing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
_________________ You may be right, I may be crazy, but it just may be a lunatic you're looking for
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Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:20 pm |
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Selador
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Location: Index Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 Posts: 12963
Real Name: Jeff
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RocketScott wrote: Technically the trigger is pressed by the trigger spring after releasing finger pressure.
The law doesn’t say that your finger has to do the pressing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Technically... You could justify full-auto by the same argument.
_________________ -Jeff
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Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:29 pm |
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