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 Feeding a Winchester 1886 45-70 notes and issues. 
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Ok this thread is going to serve as my long term repository of 45-70 load development used and hopefully standardized for use in my winchester 1886 take down. I hope to develop a light load, a fast load, a FTX/Hunting load, and finally a Heavy/Bear load.

The very first rounds I ever put down the pipe were HSM 405gr RNFP lead cowboy loads. HSM list the muzzle velocity at 1300fps, and the recoil is very manageable. These rounds produced what I'm gonna call surpising accuracy given the shakey rookie behind the sights. One thing about these HSM rounds I noticed was the 6-7" of bullet drop from 50 yards to 100yards. But for basic training and introducing a new shooter to the gun these will be my benchmark for duplication. My idea was to skip the lead cast bullets and substitute them with copper plated Berry's 350gr bullets over trailboss. The Berry's bullets I bought are: 350gr .458 dia round shoulder with cannelure part number 33468. The 33468's are different than the other .458 bullet they produce for the 458 Socom so watch for that. These 45-70 bullets are limited to 1700fps. Now I will note that berry's has replaced these with an improved design that can be fired faster and they carry a different part number.

My first attempt at reloads.... The first 20 cases used were left over from HSM that happen to be starline = nice bonus! Anyways these were dry tumbled, lubed with imperial case wax and resized using LEE dies. Onced sized they were trimmed back to 2.094, and belled till the platted bullets just fit inside. I used the lee benchtop priming tool to seat the Winchester Larger Rifle Primers. To determine how much trailboss powder to use I did a little math. Max C.O.L. 2.550" - actual case trim length of 2.094" = .456, this is how much projectile sticks out of the end of the brass case. The Berry's bullets have an overall length of .835". So .835" - .456" = .379" .379" is how far into the case the berrys bullet will be when seated to a max C.O.L of 2.550". Using the end of my caliper locked at .379" I was able to fill the case with trailboss till it reached the end of the caliper. This was dumped out on the scale and weighed. This came out to 19gr's. Hodgdon recommends that you multiply this max amount by 70% to get your starting load. So 19gr's x .7 = 13.3gr's starting load. I simplified things and just went with 13gr's as my starting load, and increasing each load 1gr till I got to 16gr's. With that out of the way I set up the Lee seating die so that it did not roll crimp the case only seated the bullet. The flat nosed bullets went in with very little fuss and were very uniformly seated at a max C.O.L. of 2.550". I then ran these all through the Lee factory crimp die very lightly. I had no intention of loading this into the magazine, I just wanted to make sure they wouldn't move and called it a night. What I didn't realize is that I had just made the same mistake as my loads for the AR15.... I forgot to check them in the chamber of the damn gun!

Two days went buy before the light bulb in my brain went off and I realized I needed to try one of these new rounds in the chamber. Sure enough it was a no go. The case stuck out probably a good 1/4". So I thought I'd be slick and just take these crimped rounds and seat them a little deeper by over powering the factory crimp.... Ya NO! There's no free lunch people, I'm not sure if the crimp held or if I messed up the adjustment of the die and essentially crushed the case into the roll crimp of the die, but I crushed two of my 13gr rounds before I stopped. :cussing: After that it was time to do it right. I set up my rcbs collet style bullet puller and yanked all the projectiles out of the 13gr loads and dumped the powder. I'm not sure what the correct way to dispose of live primers stuck in a case is but I cut the case down leaving only a short bit of straight case. I took these two and chambered them in the rifle out side and fired them at a stump just to be safe. It was kinda cool in the dark, like a big 10 pound cap gun spitting a little fire... With that out of the way I went back to basics. I grabbed a freshly tumbled as fired case from the next batch of 20 and measured it right at 2.095" That empy case fit in the chamber and the action closed. So I lubed it and ran it through the resizer. Of course it grew, so I trimmed it back to 2.094" like the 1st batch, and again this chambered in the gun. Moving on, I belled the case mouth and seated the bullet for a C.O.L of 2.550" with no crimp. This dummy round would not chamber. So I started seating it deeper into the case and rechambering the round incrementally to no avail. I stopped when I got to the top of the cannelure and it still won't chamber. At this point if I go much further in I'm not sure I'll be able to pull the bullet back out. Well I know that hornady shortens the cases for the FTX bullets to 2.040" so I tried to replicate that. I ended up with 2.035" so I decided to try it. Again seating the bullet in increments and chambering it lead me to a C.O.L. of 2.419" that's 0.131" less than the book spec.

I had heard that these damn 1886's had short throats but I wasn't real sure what effect that would have, heck I'm still not real sure what it is without a cutaway diagram but apparently I just got bit by it. But the real question is: are these loads safe to shoot this way, or is the bullet gonna get jammed in the throat and cause the gun to explode?


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Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:48 pm
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Fun process, huh? :bigsmile:

Regarding removing live primers, yes it's sure fun to shoot them . . . but I typically just remove them (slowly) with either he decapping/sizing die or my Lee universal decapping die. The Lee is cheap ($10?) and really nice for situations like yours, where you have a piece of brass that probably won't go into the sizing die.

Your final product, with the shortened case, looks pretty good to me. Maybe give it a little more crimp, though? You want to make sure that it will feed through the lever action, too.

You can probably also leave the cases at their normal length (since the empty case chambers, right?), and just seat the bullets so the cannelure disappears. As far as pulling them, you can use a hammer puller if need be.

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Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:40 pm
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MadPick wrote:
Fun process, huh? :bigsmile:

Regarding removing live primers, yes it's sure fun to shoot them . . . but I typically just remove them (slowly) with either he decapping/sizing die or my Lee universal decapping die. The Lee is cheap ($10?) and really nice for situations like yours, where you have a piece of brass that probably won't go into the sizing die.

Your final product, with the shortened case, looks pretty good to me. Maybe give it a little more crimp, though? You want to make sure that it will feed through the lever action, too.

You can probably also leave the cases at their normal length (since the empty case chambers, right?), and just seat the bullets so the cannelure disappears. As far as pulling them, you can use a hammer puller if need be.


Oh its definitely fun, and yet oooh so maddening at the same time.

I do have a lee universal decapper so I can use that next time. The question is what do you do with the primers after that, re-use them or render them inert somehow?

The shortened round has no crimp on it, it was purely for testing the chamber. I did run it through the magazine and up into the chamber and that seamed to work just fine.

I don't have a hammer puller just the rcbs collet puller. But if I were to seat the bullet that far into a normal case I think it would go beyond shoulder of the bullet but I can try it.

Lastly I was thinking about how easy the fired cases slip into the chamber, do I really need to be FL sizing them or can I just trim them, bell the mouth and seat?

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Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:57 pm
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Schoolboy wrote:
I do have a lee universal decapper so I can use that next time. The question is what do you do with the primers after that, re-use them or render them inert somehow?


I re-use them. No issues.

Schoolboy wrote:
Lastly I was thinking about how easy the fired cases slip into the chamber, do I really need to be FL sizing them or can I just trim them, bell the mouth and seat?


You probably need to size them in order to get the correct neck tension on the bullet. Using just your fingers, try just slipping a bullet into a fired case vs. a sized case. I bet you'll see a big difference.

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Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:27 pm
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Gotcha, I'll try that with the primers.

Yep your right I just tried putting a bullet in the unsized case. It wouldn't go past the mouth so I belled it a bit to get it started and it was very loose. The good news is that this did allow me to seat and crimp a projectile in place at the same 2.419" C.O.L. as the shorty case. This combo I think will have just enough meat on the bullet to get a solid crimp before the shoulder actually starts. The other thing is they now look alot like the factory HSM rounds but till I go buy another box to compair side by side I can't be sure. Anyways I did two dummy rounds this way and they both fed from the magazine into the chamber and ejected like normal....


In the picture below left to right: 2.419" dummy/ ftx short case/ 2.419" dummy round/ my first loads set to sammi max 2.550"


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Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:53 pm
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Well this thread is a bit out of date.... :rofl9:

I got tired of chasing the 45-70 cases around due to not having a reloading block big enough or heavy enough to fit them. So after a bit of scrounging around the shop I found some MDF layed out a one inch grid that was 5x5. This section was drilled clean through then glued to a solid bottom plate. It may not be pretty but its effective.

Now the actual loads were split up into 4 groups of 5 rounds consisting of 13, 14, 15, 16gr's of trailboss. Sixteen grains felt like a good place to stop considering how deep I now had the projectile seated in the case. Case length was trimmed to 2.095", WLR primers seated and C.O.L with the berry's 350gr projectile was now set to 2.419" and crimped with the lee factory crimp die.

These were shot at steel plates up at the darington gravel pit so no real groupings were recorded. But from what I remember the 13gr rounds were laughable for recoil. I even had to max out the elevation of the buckhorn site just to hit the bottom of the plates at 100yrds. The 14gr rounds came up a little, the 15's were now hitting about dead center with recoil now becoming little bit of a thing, and the 16' were higher yet and recoil was now beyond the point I would let my neices shoot it. Everything cycled perfectly and it was a great day at the pit.

This was the last outing of 2020....


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Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:23 pm
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With life being what it was, I didn't get to pick up the 1886 or make more ammo for till july 22nd of 2021. This time I remembered that 14-15 grains was the sweet spot for hitting the steel plates. So I compromised and went with 14.5grs of trailboss for all 20 rounds. Case length was again trimmed to 2.095", WLR primers seated and C.O.L with the berry's 350gr projectile set at 2.419" and crimped with the lee factory crimp die. Once more I found myself up at the darington pits ringing steel at 75yrds 100yrs and 150yrds with a generous hold above the steel plate. Recoil was such that I felt my 11yr old niece could shoot the gun, but that hasn't been tried....yet.


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Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:42 pm
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Great writeup! I just did some Trapdoor loads for my 45/70 but haven't tried them yet.

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Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:51 pm
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usrifle wrote:
Great writeup! I just did some Trapdoor loads for my 45/70 but haven't tried them yet.


Thank you! But I'm curious, whats your trapdoor recipe?




Now that this thread is updated I'm back at it and looking for opinions....

First off do the primers from my last outing with 14.5grs of trailboss look ok?


Secondly, I am going to try and make it out the Marysville rifle club public rifle shoot this Thursday with the 1886 to do some actual accuracy testing with both factory and hand loads. I know I want to try at least 10-15 rounds (14.0/14.5/15.0gr's) with trailboss and another 5-10 rounds with some IMR 4198 to repersent a middle of the road loading. Starting charge weights are 32.0gr = 1400fps and 34.7gr = 1500fps. My issue with this is the hornady book for lever actions is based on a 22" barrel where my 1886 has a 26" barrel so for a given charge weight my velocity should be higher but by how much? Is it possible to pick up 100fps with the extra barrel length I have and knowing I'll be seating the projectile deeper into the case? Complicating this the berry's bullets are limited to 1700fps so keeping them around1600ish is my goal. I plan to finish off with 5 rounds of factory hornady 325gr FTX rounds just for a bit of extra punishment. :rofl9:


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Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:51 pm
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I loaded 29 grains of 4198 under a 405 gr lead FN in virgin Starline brass. It's a published load in the Trapdoor load section of many manuals.
I have not fired any yet though.

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Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:58 pm
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Schoolboy wrote:
First off do the primers from my last outing with 14.5grs of trailboss look ok?


Nothing in that pic concerns me. You should be able to fill the case with Trail Boss right up to the base of the bullet. Do you know how many grains that would be?

Schoolboy wrote:
Is it possible to pick up 100fps with the extra barrel length I have and knowing I'll be seating the projectile deeper into the case? Complicating this the berry's bullets are limited to 1700fps so keeping them around1600ish is my goal.


I don't have .45-70 specific data to go on, but with other calibers I'd say that yes, those factors could give you too much velocity.

But, what's the worst possible outcome? Some plating flies off and you get bad accuracy? What the heck, load 'em up and try them!

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Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:27 pm
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usrifle wrote:
I loaded 29 grains of 4198 under a 405 gr lead FN in virgin Starline brass. It's a published load in the Trapdoor load section of many manuals.
I have not fired any yet though.

:thumbsup2:




MadPick wrote:
Schoolboy wrote:
First off do the primers from my last outing with 14.5grs of trailboss look ok?


Nothing in that pic concerns me. You should be able to fill the case with Trail Boss right up to the base of the bullet. Do you know how many grains that would be?

Schoolboy wrote:
Is it possible to pick up 100fps with the extra barrel length I have and knowing I'll be seating the projectile deeper into the case? Complicating this the berry's bullets are limited to 1700fps so keeping them around1600ish is my goal.


I don't have .45-70 specific data to go on, but with other calibers I'd say that yes, those factors could give you too much velocity.

But, what's the worst possible outcome? Some plating flies off and you get bad accuracy? What the heck, load 'em up and try them!



I just redid the math and filled a case.... The scale says 17.4grs of trail boss is maxed out. As for velocity, I'm 5% concerned instead of boom I end up Ka-boom. The other 95% of me is worried about leading the barrel. People talk about it like you're trying the chisel the devils snot out of your barrel.

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Wed Feb 02, 2022 12:53 pm
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With your jacketed bullets, leading shouldn't be a problem. With Lead you just need to keep the velocity down below around 1400 fps is my understanding.

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Wed Feb 02, 2022 2:21 pm
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usrifle wrote:
With your jacketed bullets, leading shouldn't be a problem. With Lead you just need to keep the velocity down below around 1400 fps is my understanding.



These projectiles are plated vs jacketed so the manufacturer put a 1700fps limit on them before the plating seperates from the lead core. New redesigned version bumped up to 1900fps and should fit better but I haven't been able to buy any yet.

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Wed Feb 02, 2022 2:31 pm
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Schoolboy wrote:
usrifle wrote:
With your jacketed bullets, leading shouldn't be a problem. With Lead you just need to keep the velocity down below around 1400 fps is my understanding.



These projectiles are plated vs jacketed so the manufacturer put a 1700fps limit on them before the plating seperates from the lead core. New redesigned version bumped up to 1900fps and should fit better but I haven't been able to buy any yet.


I'm not one to punish myself, so i'll keep the velocities down personally. Especially off the bench. If you push those rounds out at 1600-1700 fps, let me know how that feels after a few.
1900 fps? I want to watch. :popcorn:

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Mr. Q wrote: so basically, if you have to smoke some asshole, make sure they become fertilizer and then Bounce? got it.

Guntrader wrote: Huh, maybe I was an asshole.

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Wed Feb 02, 2022 2:37 pm
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