Can you really murder someone in self defense?

Asking for a friend

Why would mere possession be an indication of non-compliance?

Derailment, but folks are charged with murder and claim self defense often. A jury will decide if it's murder or self defense. So in a sense, "yes."

Murder is illegal. Justifiable Homicide is what you are looking for at the end of the day.

So, I am a murderer unless I prove that I am not? Gotcha #solidlegaladvice

And for those who are "Just show them the papers and move along".. I get it, it's probably EXACTLY what all of us WOULD DO, but that is NOT the question. The question is "Who can demand to see your stamps....". Not if you should just volunteer information or make up little photocopies.

The biggest question for me is "can those fudds at a range demand to see your stamps?"

Sure, they can can demand to see them, it does not mean much. I can demand you give me $1million, doe not really mean anything. Whether you (we) are legally required to comply with the demand is the real question that is being asked in this thread.

Private range can demand/ask as part of permitting you to be on their property. You disagree or refuse, get off their property or get trespassed. No different than places that say no guns allowed. You get caught carrying and asked to leave, you leave or get trespassed.

Agreed. This is an academic discussion about who can legally demand to see the tax stamp . . . not who will, or might, or whether you intend to show them when asked.

Leadcounsel, this is the first time that I've heard of the concept of "presumptively illegal." (Not passing judgment on what you're saying, I'm just saying that I'm not familiar with it.) I find it a bit disturbing that we might have different standards for probable cause, based on the way that laws are worded.

Is "presumptively illegal" an established legal thing? And is it established that if something is presumptively illegal, that this in itself is probable cause to detain, search, etc. to see if the exceptions are being met?

So, we now live in Russia or China or NK?
That is like saying, "guilty until proven innocent."

This - the personal/professional jabs are precisely why I disclosed it was NOT legal advice. A blatant attack on my "legal advice" is a cheap shot, particularly when I expressly stated I was not giving nor advising or interpreting it as legal counsel. I've tried several times to discuss this and taken jabs from several others, and now a Mod piles on.

I'm done with this discussion. I'm not going to be attacked for trying to offer my personal interpretation.

Refuse to show your NFA papers to a inquiring cop at your own foolish peril. I bet he just gives up and goes away, like when that never happens in real life when a cop is investigating a possible felony in progress...

Oh, boy.....

Where to start?

First of all, let's go through some standards of proof:

Reasonable suspicion is suspicion...a "hunch" if you will...something that simply tells you to look closer; something that (based on your experience and/or training) just doesn't "look" right.

I'll describe an incident in which I was personally involved. As a matter of fact, I believe that at least one of the posters in this thread was on the range when this happened.

I was doing RSO one day...walking back and forth, watching the firing line, getting people signed on, collecting money, etc.

A guy shows up with a couple of what I believe were family members. He has a red plastic case that he opens up. Inside is an SBR...with a fixed stock. NOT an arm brace.

I look closer. I note that the lower is beat all to hell and gone...AND THERE IS NO ENGRAVING ON IT.

We have now developed an articulable "reasonable suspicion" that there is something not quite right here.

I look closely at the firearm, and I can articulate through my training and experience that the barrel is a 14 incher. I can also now see both sides, because he just signed on, and the lower is NOT engraved.

Reasonable suspicion now FIRMLY established. I dig a little deeper...

and I ask the guy, "Hey, nice rifle. Where did it come from?"

"Oh, a friend put it together for me." My BS meter is now registering strongly. My sense of absolute dread is also surfacing...because I REALLY do NOT want to deal with this.

I tell the guy, "OK, stop. This is a short barreled rifle. Where did you get it from?"

"Well, my friend in California made it for me. He's a cop."

WHAM!!! Right past reasonable suspicion, and square into probable cause--that which would lead a reasonable person to believe that a criminal act is being/has been/ will be committed.

And of course, there is this to think about:

"RCW 9.41.220
Unlawful firearms and parts contraband.
All machine guns, bump-fire stocks, undetectable firearms, short-barreled shotguns, or short-barreled rifles, or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, illegally held or illegally possessed are hereby declared to be contraband, and it shall be the duty of all peace officers, and/or any officer or member of the armed forces of the United States or the state of Washington, to seize said machine gun, bump-fire stock, undetectable firearm, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or parts thereof, wherever and whenever found."

I also notice that there are two guys standing close to the guy, and they're giving him the stink eye. They are on the range to have fun.

I know both of those two guys. And I know that there is a good chance that the guy with the SBR is about to have a REALLY bad day.

I tell the guy, "Dude, you're full of crap. Get that piece of **** off my range, RIGHT NOW, put the proper upper on that rifle and destroy the one you have on there now. You're about one half of an inch from some real jail time. Leave NOW. And, no...you DON'T get your range fee back."

The guy quickly packed up and left.

The two guys looked at me and said, "It's all good" and went back to having some fun.

No, we aren't all butt heads that want to take people's guns.

Not me...nor the two guys who were there off duty because they love to shoot; both of whom reload, and who will educate rather than arrest. I mean the two BATFE SPECIAL AGENTS who were trying to enjoy an off day.

So...save yourself the trouble, folks. Get a photocopy of your applicable form 4's or Form 1's, and carry them with you. And for heaven's sake--if you're one of the lucky few who own a registered and transferable full auto that was in the State and is on a Form 4 before 1986, PLEASE make sure you have it with you. I function heavily on the presumption of innocence, and I'm more than willing to give a break. Please make it possible for me to do so.

Are engravings the be all/end all visual proof its legal? Its been mentioned a few times now, but as I recall, I don't think a form 4 needs engraving. Only form 1s.

Correct, though I’d word it a little differently.

A Form 4 gun will typically have the original manufacturer’s info engraved on it. A Form 1 gun will typically have the original manufacturer’s info engraved on it PLUS the info of the person/trust who converted it to an SBR.

Powderman, thank for chiming in, as a LEO your input is needed in this discussion. I see that you used an analogy from observing a person as an RSO at the range. So your input seemed to be both an RSO observation as well as LEO.

My question(s) to you fall on the LEO side.
1) Do you have the legal ability to demand to see / inspect / verify a tax stamp?

2) If I remember right, you are a LEO but also with some Federal bonus powers, does this help #1 at all?

3) If joe-shmoe has an SBR, but it's a nice looking SBR (not some obvious home made job), what is your LEA procedure to verify that it is a legal firearm in a casual encounter.

4) Above, a member stated that just possessing an NFA item was RAC/PC for needing to prove via volunteering papers that it's a legal NFA item. Is this your, or your departments interpretation as well?

Was it an upper from PSA?