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Built AR Pistol Lower, is it a "pistol"?
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PinSniper
Site Supporter
Location: Seattle Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2016 Posts: 765
Real Name: Erik
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So I bought an AR pistol lower and pointed that out to the FFL for the transfer that it was a "pistol".
After having said that.. I immediately realized that I had no idea what I'm talking about. When does a receiver become a pistol? And importantly, is it a pistol for the purpose of the extra county PD check (wa state definition of pistol)?
Without a barrel or a stock, is an AR pistol lower the same as a stripped lower, hence should have been an "other" on the 4473 and no pistol / county PD check?
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Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:16 am |
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dreadi
Site Supporter / FFL Dealer
Location: Tacoma, Washington Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2014 Posts: 8374
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You just bought a new/never built stripped lower? It's an "other".
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Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:37 am |
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scorpion rider
Site Supporter
Location: 40 acres of 2A sanctuary Joined: Sun Apr 7, 2013 Posts: 919
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dreadi wrote: You just bought a new/never built stripped lower? It's an "other".
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Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:11 am |
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Massivedesign
Site Admin
Location: Olympia, WA Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 Posts: 38310
Real Name: Dan
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A lower is not defined until it it is mated with a barrel and a stock. And even then, thanks to the Thompson Contender ATF ruling, can be easily redefined by just changing the configuration.
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Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:14 am |
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Guns4Liberty
Site Supporter
Location: Lynnwood/Bothell Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 Posts: 8565
Real Name: Curtis
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Massivedesign wrote: A lower is not defined until it it is mated with a barrel and a stock. And even then, thanks to the Thompson Contender ATF ruling, can be easily redefined by just changing the configuration. Yes and no. You're right that a stripped lower must be "built" before it can be defined as anything other than a frame/receiver, but changing the configuration isn't so simple. If you take a virgin frame/receiver and build it into a pistol configuration first, then you retain flexibility to change it to a rifle later, and even back into a pistol if you so choose, and none of those changes wade into NFA territory. But if you build it into a rifle configuration first (with a stock), then you cannot change it into a pistol later without paying ATF $200 and filing a Form 1 to make a SBR. The reason for that is the resulting pistol is a "weapon made from a rifle" and (presumably) has a barrel less than 16" in length. PinSniper wrote: So I bought an AR pistol lower and pointed that out to the FFL for the transfer that it was a "pistol".
After having said that.. I immediately realized that I had no idea what I'm talking about. When does a receiver become a pistol? And importantly, is it a pistol for the purpose of the extra county PD check (wa state definition of pistol)?
Without a barrel or a stock, is an AR pistol lower the same as a stripped lower, hence should have been an "other" on the 4473 and no pistol / county PD check? If the lower is built/assembled including a buffer tube assembly (meaning NOT stripped) but does not have a shoulder stock attached (that could mean it has either a standard 6-position buffer tube without anything on it, or a round "pistol" buffer tube with or without foam padding or arm brace), which your subject line and post suggest is the case, then I believe ATF would consider that to be a handgun/pistol and no longer just a frame/receiver ("other" on the 4473). However, I am not 100% sure about that. I've just always seen built pistol lowers (with pistol buffer tubes with or without arm braces) both marketed and transferred as pistols. That doesn't mean it's correct, but I strongly suspect it is.
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Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:54 am |
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1811GNR
Site Supporter
Location: East Renton Plateau Joined: Tue Jul 5, 2011 Posts: 914
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A complete lower with a stock is still an "other". If you choose to remove the stock, then install a <16" barreled upper then a pistol has been assembled.
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
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Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:21 am |
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Duke EB
Site Supporter
Location: maple valley Joined: Mon May 6, 2013 Posts: 2575
Real Name: Earl
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Doesn't it depend on what the OEM says it is? The 4473 should match right?
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Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:54 am |
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MadPick
Site Admin
Location: Renton, WA Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 Posts: 52068
Real Name: Steve
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Duke EB wrote: Doesn't it depend on what the OEM says it is? The 4473 should match right? No. The OEM doesn't get to decide.
_________________SteveBenefactor Life Member, National Rifle AssociationLife Member, Second Amendment FoundationPatriot & Life Member, Gun Owners of AmericaLife Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear ArmsLegal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy CoalitionMember, NAGR/NFGRPlease support the organizations that support all of us.Leave it cleaner than you found it.
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Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:02 am |
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Guns4Liberty
Site Supporter
Location: Lynnwood/Bothell Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 Posts: 8565
Real Name: Curtis
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1811GNR wrote: A complete lower with a stock is still an "other". If you choose to remove the stock, then install a <16" barreled upper then a pistol has been assembled. I just confirmed this with a couple different FFLs, so it appears you are correct. I guess that makes sense, since it still hasn't been built "enough" to give it a definitive configuration. Good to know!
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Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:10 am |
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Duke EB
Site Supporter
Location: maple valley Joined: Mon May 6, 2013 Posts: 2575
Real Name: Earl
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MadPick wrote: Duke EB wrote: Doesn't it depend on what the OEM says it is? The 4473 should match right? No. The OEM doesn't get to decide.
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Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:18 am |
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PinSniper
Site Supporter
Location: Seattle Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2016 Posts: 765
Real Name: Erik
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1811GNR wrote: A complete lower with a stock is still an "other". If you choose to remove the stock, then install a <16" barreled upper then a pistol has been assembled.
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk Just confirming, is this for BOTH state and Federal? As in, no PD check here, because that extra check cost me a few extra bucks on the transfer (and if someone hasn't got a CPL, 10 days of delay).
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Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:08 pm |
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MadPick
Site Admin
Location: Renton, WA Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 Posts: 52068
Real Name: Steve
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Yes, an FFL will not treat an "other" as a pistol. That's Washington state policy.
_________________SteveBenefactor Life Member, National Rifle AssociationLife Member, Second Amendment FoundationPatriot & Life Member, Gun Owners of AmericaLife Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear ArmsLegal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy CoalitionMember, NAGR/NFGRPlease support the organizations that support all of us.Leave it cleaner than you found it.
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Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:40 pm |
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PinSniper
Site Supporter
Location: Seattle Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2016 Posts: 765
Real Name: Erik
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Thanks for the clarification guys!
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Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:22 pm |
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RocketScott
Site Supporter
Location: Kentucky Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 Posts: 11098
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Duke EB wrote: MadPick wrote: Duke EB wrote: Doesn't it depend on what the OEM says it is? The 4473 should match right? No. The OEM doesn't get to decide. The F* it doesn't OEM decides how it leaves the factory. Complete or striped lower Go look at 'incomplete' ARs from BMC or Aero. Even though they don't have furniture they still are considered complete rifles/pistols when they leave the factory. https://lanbosarmory.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=24_27_28&products_id=34125
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Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:16 pm |
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Guns4Liberty
Site Supporter
Location: Lynnwood/Bothell Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 Posts: 8565
Real Name: Curtis
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I think what Steve meant is that the OEM is not the ultimate authority on determining the legal classification. They can call it what they want, but it is what ATF/the law says it is, so if the two aren't the same then OEM classification is irrelevant.
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Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:45 pm |
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