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TechnoWeenie wrote:Ebola is airborne, according to a new report by the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy (CIDRAP) at the University of Minnesota.


So....

Rats, Pigs, Monkeys, etc all were infected via airborne particles, from studies done decades ago, and they finally admit that it might be airborne...

scientists are now warning both health care providers and the general public that surgical facemasks will not prevent the transmission of Ebola. According to the airborne Ebola report, medical workers must immediately be given full-hooded protective gear and powered air-purifying respirators.

That's not the definition of airborne. ....and Ebola Reston already *is* airborne--the real airborne-- however this is not the Ebola Reston virus that is currently causing all this fiasco. Not to mention the Reston strain has shown to be non-pathogenic in humans.

dan360 wrote:

TechnoWeenie wrote:Ebola is airborne, according to a new report by the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy (CIDRAP) at the University of Minnesota.


So....

Rats, Pigs, Monkeys, etc all were infected via airborne particles, from studies done decades ago, and they finally admit that it might be airborne...

scientists are now warning both health care providers and the general public that surgical facemasks will not prevent the transmission of Ebola. According to the airborne Ebola report, medical workers must immediately be given full-hooded protective gear and powered air-purifying respirators.

That's not the definition of airborne. ....and Ebola Reston already *is* airborne--the real airborne-- however this is not the Ebola Reston virus that is currently causing all this fiasco. Not to mention the Reston strain has shown to be non-pathogenic in humans.

I lived in the area when the 'outbreak' occurred.... the (mis)management of the event shows how little we are actually prepared...

I'll just leave this here, for those who think that it'd be A-okay for nurses to abandon their stations if confronted with an Ebola patient:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... ldier.html

And as for this:

skey wrote:An Ebola outbreak was probably not on their radar when they signed up to be nurses.

No, it probably wasn't, but when you "sign up", you have it drilled over and over again into you that nursing is a profession that will regularly expose you to infectious disease, so to me, it doesn't matter if Ebola was on any R.N.'s "radar" when they "signed up". You have an obligation to your patients and to society at large when you pass the NCLEX-RN and start work. Can you imagine the breakdown in care, the absolute chaos, if R.N.'s refused to come to work just because they might contract Ebola?

I know that I could not, in good conscience, refuse (or "call in sick") to come to work because I might contract an infectious disease. I might choose to not come home, to have my boys either stay with my father and stepmum or have my stepmum stay with them, but I sure as H-ll could not live with myself if I refused to perform the duties of my chosen profession.

glockgirl wrote:I'll just leave this here, for those who think that it'd be A-okay for nurses to abandon their stations if confronted with an Ebola patient:

In your opinion should they act the same if the hospital is unable to provide them with the proper equipment to handle Ebola as outlined by the CDC? Many of the nurses have claimed that they were given what ever was available and told to make due. If this is the case should they still jump in there like nothing is wrong. As a firefighter we also have a pledge, but it does not mean I go into a burning building with some coveralls when my department fails to give me bunker gear. We do not risk our lives needlessly and the nurses oath should not mean they are required to do so either.

A very interesting read on Ebola.
http://dtolar.wordpress.com/2014/10/01/ ... rspective/

mycyclonegt wrote:...should they act the same if the hospital is unable to provide them with the proper equipment to handle Ebola as outlined by the CDC?

Nurses in Africa right this minute are making due with plastic garbage bags and duct tape. Texas Presbyterian obviously fucked up big time by not having any kind of decent isolation protocol in place for any infectious disease (and as I've stated before, how they managed to get away with this for probably years, I don't know) and that lack of a decent isolation protocol has probably led to hundreds of nosocomial infections at that hospital over the years.

However, as of now, I doubt that there is any hospital in the U.S. (and the rest of the Western world) that is not closely examining its own isolation protocols and industriously ordering PPE equipment to cover their own asses in the event of an Ebola patient arrival. As to your question, well, if the hospital refuses to provide proper equipment to handle an infectious patient, it becomes a little tricky. The hospital is violating OSHA protections and the law in general, but the nurse could potentially still be brought up on patient abandonment charges before the state Board of Nursing if she refuses to care for the patient.

So I guess my answer is, I would personally protect myself as best I could, I would file a complaint with OSHA, but I would still care for the patient. That's me, personally.

glockgirl wrote:
Nurses in Africa right this minute are making due with plastic garbage bags and duct tape.

I'm sure you have noticed they are also dropping like flies. What is it like 400 or so that have died over there thus far? So far healthcare workers aren't doing much better here either, especially considering the odds. I think there will be a revolt if something isn't done about the way Ebola is being dealt with.

.

glockgirl wrote:

mycyclonegt wrote:...should they act the same if the hospital is unable to provide them with the proper equipment to handle Ebola as outlined by the CDC?

Nurses in Africa right this minute are making due with plastic garbage bags and duct tape. Texas Presbyterian obviously fucked up big time by not having any kind of decent isolation protocol in place for any infectious disease (and as I've stated before, how they managed to get away with this for probably years, I don't know) and that lack of a decent isolation protocol has probably led to hundreds of nosocomial infections at that hospital over the years.

However, as of now, I doubt that there is any hospital in the U.S. (and the rest of the Western world) that is not closely examining its own isolation protocols and industriously ordering PPE equipment to cover their own asses in the event of an Ebola patient arrival. As to your question, well, if the hospital refuses to provide proper equipment to handle an infectious patient, it becomes a little tricky. The hospital is violating OSHA protections and the law in general, but the nurse could potentially still be brought up on patient abandonment charges before the state Board of Nursing if she refuses to care for the patient.

So I guess my answer is, I would personally protect myself as best I could, I would file a complaint with OSHA, but I would still care for the patient. That's me, personally.

There are binoculars in every apparatus at every station I've ever been on/with/to...

There's a reason for that... we aren't driving up to hazardous cargo/scenes without getting a clear picture first..identify what hazards exist, etc.

What you're saying is....

'We have an overturned tanker...and I don't know what's in it, but since I don't have binoculars, I'm just gonna drive up to it to see if I can read a placard'.

Shit like that gets people killed.

Anyone who disregards their own safety is putting others at risk, not just themselves..

Just like idiots that jump into swift water to save their dog...now the family has a dead dog and a dead husband/son/father..

Now you're putting others' lives at risk when someone has to try and save your dumb asd...

"Filoviruses, which are classified as Category A Bioterrorism Agents by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (Atlanta, GA), have stability in aerosol form comparable to other lipid containing viruses such as influenza A virus, a low infectious dose by the aerosol route (less than 10 PFU) in NHPs, and case fatality rates as high as ~90% ."
"The mode of acquisition of viral infection in index cases is usually unknown. Secondary transmission of filovirus infection is typically thought to occur by direct contact with infected persons or infected blood or tissues. There is no strong evidence of secondary transmission by the aerosol route in African filovirus outbreaks. However, aerosol transmission is thought to be possible and may occur in conditions of lower temperature and humidity which may not have been factors in outbreaks in warmer climates [13]. At the very least, the potential exists for aerosol transmission, given that virus is detected in bodily secretions, the pulmonary alveolar interstitial cells, and within lung spaces"

This is supposedly a quote from the studies done by the Center for Aerobiological Sciences, U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases at Fort Detrick, Maryland. Linked sources here:
http://pissinontheroses.blogspot.com/20 ... e.html?m=1

TechnoWeenie wrote:Now you're putting others' lives at risk when someone has to try and save your dumb ass...

Really? Did you not read my previous post where I said that I might not go home, I might not leave the hospital, I might put my boys into the care of my parents, all to eliminate the risk of spreading the infection? You're calling me a dumbass for saying that I would rather risk my own life than leave a patient who needs me? Nice. Very nice.

glockgirl wrote:

TechnoWeenie wrote:Now you're putting others' lives at risk when someone has to try and save your dumb ass...

Really? Did you not read my previous post where I said that I might not go home, I might not leave the hospital, I might put my boys into the care of my parents, all to eliminate the risk of spreading the infection? You're calling me a dumbass for saying that I would rather risk my own life than leave a patient who needs me? Nice. Very nice.

That was a general 'dumbass' Ala Red Foreman.... not aimed particularly at anyone...

Risking ones life and rushing in unprepared are 2 different things.. see my example above.

Sidetrack, but related...

You work at a nursing home/hospice... the shit has hit the fan... pandemic....zombies...aliens... civil unrest...you choose.... you're on your own.... you have 3 days of food left to supply the nursing home... 95% of your patients will die in a couple days anyway because they can't get dialysis or medication.

Your bug out bag is in your vehicle...along with your side arm...so you have roughly 3 days food/water....100 or so rounds of ammo... fire starter...pocket saw..etc.


If you don't leave...you'll be caught up in the mess and die...you might save 2 or 4 patients but most are non ambulatory and can't walk or need wheelchair asistance...

If you stay, there's a 90% chance you'll die within a couple days...

If you leave, there's a 50% chance you'll survive.

Do you stay? Knowing that they'll be dead anyway, and you died keeping them somewhat comfortable in their last days?

Do you leave them, to get your own family?

Do you gather up all the morphine and give everyone one last 'flu shot'?

It's all about risk management..

If they're gonna be dead in 3 days anyway....what good will me staying do? It's a noble gesture. ..that ends with me dead.. how noble is death?

It's ultimately a personal choice...

glockgirl wrote:

TechnoWeenie wrote:Now you're putting others' lives at risk when someone has to try and save your dumb ass...

Really? Did you not read my previous post where I said that I might not go home, I might not leave the hospital, I might put my boys into the care of my parents, all to eliminate the risk of spreading the infection? You're calling me a dumbass for saying that I would rather risk my own life than leave a patient who needs me? Nice. Very nice.

There is a different duty to act between health care and police/fire etc. Police serve the "general public" and "keep the peace". If you call 911 and the police can't find enough search and rescue volunteers to pull you off a mountain, or get distracted by another call and you get stabbed by a crazy guy, that's just your bad luck. If a medical professional is delivering care, they have a duty to act. (to keep giving care until someone else can take over and give the same or better care as needed)

So, a nurse can't stop CPR and go for a smoke or leave because their shift ended. Or leave a patient because they don't like the disease. But I agree it is tricky on the PPE front.... is any hazard ok for a nurse? Would you go into a burning building to pull someone out and give them CPR? (even if you aren't trained and don't have the right protective gear) The right answer is no, you wouldn't place yourself at unnecessary risk. But on the other hand, once you start giving care to someone, you can't stop just because you find out they have ebola, or HIV or whatever.

The rules we follow in search and rescue are that your own safety is higher than the rest of the team, the public and the subject. But because we operate under the direction of the police, we have the same duty to the general pubic only, unless we have established a relationship with someone (either bringing them out or delivering medical care).

A lot of coverage now that the CDC has admitted they ok'ed the second nurse to travel saying her temperature was below their threshold for saying no. While Freiden at the CDC has still publicly blamed her for travelling knowing that another nurse was infected - either that or he is blaming the CDC for not stopping her. This guy seems like he is doing a lousy job. But as with most federal agencies the next person in line (like FEMA, Secret Service etc) is probably just as incompetent.

And it does look like the hospital messed up quite badly, and didn't have a great reputation to start with.

http://www.komonews.com/news/national/C ... 18122.html

TechnoWeenie wrote:Do you stay? Knowing that they'll be dead anyway, and you died keeping them somewhat comfortable in their last days?

I would stay, yes. I already have provisions in place (and have had for years, even when I was still married) for the care of my sons should some natural/civil disaster or MASCAL occur that would require, morally or at the request of public authorities, that I go immediately to my hospital, or if that proves impossible, to the nearest/most accessible hospital to assist in the care of the injured. However, that is just me, me and my (obviously incomprehensibly stupid, to you) belief that putting others above self is the right and moral thing to do.

glockgirl wrote:

TechnoWeenie wrote:Do you stay? Knowing that they'll be dead anyway, and you died keeping them somewhat comfortable in their last days?

I would stay, yes. I already have provisions in place (and have had for years, even when I was still married) for the care of my sons should some natural/civil disaster or MASCAL occur that would require, morally or at the request of public authorities, that I go immediately to my hospital, or if that proves impossible, to the nearest/most accessible hospital to assist in the care of the injured. However, that is just me, me and my (obviously incomprehensibly stupid, to you) belief that putting others above self is the right and moral thing to do.

Hah.. we choose risk differently...


Lot easier to see metal fatigue....potential collapse points...a fire 'breathing' and about to flash over, a garage or shed traditionally used to store flammable liquids, vapors, propane, etc..

Kinda hard to see a patient sneeze and guess if he got a piece of dust in his nose or if you just witnessed patient zero infect an entire waiting room.

Again... risk management...risk mitigation. calculated risk..etc etc

I'm betting though, that the training videos we saw were a lot more graphic and detailed directly pertaining to our work, than yours are/were.

They don't show 'this is how you contract ebola, and what you look like before you die'...

Same reason I wouldn't wanna fuck with a methanol fire.. can't see that shit...

Although both are probably right up there in the 'it ain't gonna happen to me' category.. (ebola and methanol fires)