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 Why are we the worlds police 
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You've already made up your mind it seems.

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Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:07 pm
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kf7mjf wrote:
You've already made up your mind it seems.

Not about your intent - that's why I asked.

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Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:10 pm
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My intent was to state that there have been multiple cases where the US Government, often with the support of Congress manipulated other nation states for the benefit of various corporate interests.

Hence the specific examples

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Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:16 pm
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kf7mjf wrote:
My intent was to state that there have been multiple cases where the US Government, often with the support of Congress manipulated other nation states for the benefit of various corporate interests.

Hence the specific examples

I have no problem with that. Some people blame "America" (the entire country and the blueprint they strive to implement) for the selfish acts of a relatively few bad actors - glad to hear you're not one of them.

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Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:48 pm
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Considering what I've been discussing is pretty common knowledge (or would be, except that it goes against the ideas of American exceptionalism and says white people can do bad things) I fail to see why you keep harping on the idea that I might be engaging in certain thought patterns.

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Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:53 pm
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DocNugent wrote:
I have no problem with that. Some people blame "America" (the entire country and the blueprint they strive to implement) for the selfish acts of a relatively few bad actors - glad to hear you're not one of them.


May I ask what blueprint you see the entire country trying to implement? Also who are the relatively few bad actors? Just asking for clarification.

Fyi I blame those in power. Not the American people. I think that was made crystal clear last year by Princeton:

http://m.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

This is a widely commented on study that has received almost no press but I love the BBC headline: Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy


Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:59 pm
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kf7mjf wrote:
Considering what I've been discussing is pretty common knowledge . . . I fail to see why you keep harping on the idea that I might be engaging in certain thought patterns.

In the absence of clear, complete communication, a reader is left to guess the writer's intent by taking into account the usually limited context - that's a major problem with memes and other forms of cliche. Someone who's known you for years has a context for what you say, but others can only go by what's been typed.

BTW, there are hundreds of millions of Americans who do not share your view of what is 'common knowledge' about America - a large proportion of them might consider your views to be the result of being brainwashed (in the Korean War sense). Not saying that's true, just challenging the word 'common' in your post (it reminds me of the stifling effect intended when the left says the consensus of the scientific community is (fill in the blank).

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Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:15 pm
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DocNugent wrote:
kf7mjf wrote:
Considering what I've been discussing is pretty common knowledge . . . I fail to see why you keep harping on the idea that I might be engaging in certain thought patterns.

In the absence of clear, complete communication, a reader is left to guess the writer's intent by taking into account the usually limited context - that's a major problem with memes and other forms of cliche. Someone who's known you for years has a context for what you say, but others can only go by what's been typed.

BTW, there are hundreds of millions of Americans who do not share your view of what is 'common knowledge' about America - a large proportion of them might consider your views to be the result of being brainwashed (in the Korean War sense). Not saying that's true, just challenging the word 'common' in your post (it reminds me of the stifling effect intended when the left says the consensus of the scientific community is (fill in the blank).


What did he bring up that might be the result of brainwashing?


Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:19 pm
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Hawaii, Banana republics, and the roll of United Fruit in American imperialism.

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Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:26 pm
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I guess I would have to agree with him that they aren't common sense to most Americans. Most Americans also believed at one point that Iraq and Saddam Hussein were responsible for 9/11.

To his brainwashing point I would say that those who listen to the propaganda put forth by our government have been brainwashed and not the opposite.


Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:37 pm
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finster wrote:
DocNugent wrote:
I have no problem with that. Some people blame "America" (the entire country and the blueprint they strive to implement) for the selfish acts of a relatively few bad actors - glad to hear you're not one of them.


May I ask what blueprint you see the entire country trying to implement? Also who are the relatively few bad actors? Just asking for clarification. . . .

I know there are and always have been dissidents, but the blueprint of America is the Declaration of Independence. The Constitution was the way the Framers thought the blueprint could best be implemented, and they built into it a process of Amendment proposal/ratification to correct or add to the Constitution. For over a century, school children were taught what America was trying to be (keep your eye on the prize), and adults took pride in being able to recite American tenets when deciding a course of action (or holding an office holder or other powerful spokesman accountable).

Those who ignore or dismiss the American blueprint remind me of Alfonso Bedoya's character in Treasure of the Sierra Madre: "Batches? We don' need no steenkin batches . . ." although their effect is not fictional, and their intent can be more sinister.

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Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:37 pm
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finster wrote:
. . . I would say that those who listen to the propaganda put forth by our government have been brainwashed and not the opposite.

I agree totally with that statement.
:thumbsup2:

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Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:44 pm
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DocNugent wrote:
I know there are and always have been dissidents, but the blueprint of America is the Declaration of Independence. The Constitution was the way the Framers thought the blueprint could best be implemented, and they built into it a process of Amendment proposal/ratification to correct or add to the Constitution. For over a century, school children were taught what America was trying to be (keep your eye on the prize), and adults took pride in being able to recite American tenets when deciding a course of action (or holding an office holder or other powerful spokesman accountable).

Those who ignore or dismiss the American blueprint remind me of Alfonso Bedoya's character in Treasure of the Sierra Madre: "Batches? We don' need no steenkin batches . . ." although their effect is not fictional, and their intent can be more sinister.


We agree on the blueprint but I would argue and I believe the study I posted earlier proves that we are no longer following that blueprint. How does toppling democratically elected governments for united fruit fit in with the declaration of independence? I wish we were what our propaganda made us out to be. I believe the people of this country as a majority believe in being a beacon of democracy......but it's hard being a beacon of democracy when you aren't one.


Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:51 pm
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finster wrote:
We agree on the blueprint but I would argue and I believe the study I posted earlier proves that we are no longer following that blueprint. . . .

[Parable] A small group of us were granted land to start a new country. We wrote a very simple 'Constitution': "Don't hurt people or take their stuff."

Everything ran pretty well (not perfectly, but better than the other countries) for a long while, then one of our grandkids went away to a 'top tier' foreign university. He came back preaching, "If you didn't get to vote on the Constitution, you don't have to obey it. Besides, there are some people who deserve to be hurt and taking their stuff hurts them so theft is a good thing." We ignored his sophomoric bullshit, because it flew in the face of common sense, but since he was the only person in the land with a 'top tier' degree, we hired him to teach our kids.

As no one could have predicted, several of the kids he taught eventually ran for office and, tiring of eternal vigilance, we accepted one change after another. One finally caught our eye, though: an edict that "Theft done for the greater good is a virtue . . . ." WTF happened to our country? [/parable]

My question is how do we get back to building this country according to the blueprint rather than just knocking down walls that may be load-bearing?

That inspired this:


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Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:20 pm
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DocNugent wrote:
finster wrote:
We agree on the blueprint but I would argue and I believe the study I posted earlier proves that we are no longer following that blueprint. . . .

[Parable] A small group of us were granted land to start a new country. We wrote a very simple 'Constitution': "Don't hurt people or take their stuff."

Everything ran pretty well (not perfectly, but better than the other countries) for a long while, then one of our grandkids went away to a 'top tier' foreign university. He came back preaching, "If you didn't get to vote on the Constitution, you don't have to obey it. Besides, there are some people who deserve to be hurt and taking their stuff hurts them so theft is a good thing." We ignored his sophomoric bullshit, because it flew in the face of common sense, but since he was the only person in the land with a 'top tier' degree, we hired him to teach our kids.

As no one could have predicted, several of the kids he taught eventually ran for office and, tiring of eternal vigilance, we accepted one change after another. One finally caught our eye, though: an edict that "Theft done for the greater good is a virtue . . . ." WTF happened to our country? [/parable]

My question is how do we get back to building this country according to the blueprint rather than just knocking down walls that may be load-bearing?

That inspired this:

I am afraid the country won't survive long enough for people to have grandkids. "Don't hurt people or take their stuff" more or less excludes the taxes. No taxes = no military, no science, no coordinated actions of any kind that requires mobilization of resources of any scale: no roads, no bridges, no dams, no power plants, etc. Societies like that have existed in the past, but they never existed for very long, not long enough to become real countries.

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