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It is currently Sat Feb 08, 2025 6:28 am
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AR15L
Site Supporter
Location: Nampa, Idaho
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011
Posts: 20125
Real Name: Rick
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Most of you know, I'm an old fart. (except to the older farts) I've been working on my own minibikes, motorcycles & cars forever. I even got into drag racing my built Sportster for a while. So, while I'm not a "paid" mechanic, I would of thought I knew a little bit about tools. (I even had some Whitworths that someone stole  ) Well, as of two days ago, I've been humbled. I learned something new and I could not appreciate learning it one bit more. JIS Japanese Industrial Standard Quote: A Japanese cross-point screwdriver fits a JIS and a Phillips screw. However, a Phillips driver will not fit a JIS screw. It can only fit a Phillips screw snuggly.
The high precision black point cross-point tips fit "JIS" (Japanese Industrial Standard) and standard screw heads perfectly. This ensures a correct fit for fastening and helps prevent cam-outs.
Therefore, these VESSEL drivers are universal so they can be used as a conventional screwdriver (like any other) BUT it has the extra feature of fitting JIS screws!
The Phillips is an American design created and patented by Henry Phillips in 1936. It went onto the production floor first at the Cadillac factory in 1940. One of the attributes that Cadillac engineers liked about the design is that the driver would "cam-out" after a certain torque was reached and not allow over-tightening of the screw. The design offered other advantages like self-centering and the tool, screw engagement was quick, with never more than 90 degrees of rotation needed before the tool started working.
Japanese engineers developed their own cross-point design, but did not view this "cam-out" feature as an advantage. They wanted the benefits of self-centering and quick tool, screw engagement that the cross-point design offered, but torque and over-tightening would be addressed at the operator or tool level, not at the screw tip.     This is just my story. If any of you 'one-ups' knew about this before, then good for you. If I've helped someone else with this info, you're welcome.
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| Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:20 am |
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KeystoneCowboy
Site Supporter
Location: Burlington
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012
Posts: 6024
Real Name: Kyle
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AR15L wrote: Most of you know, I'm an old fart. (except to the older farts) I've been working on my own minibikes, motorcycles & cars forever. I even got into drag racing my built Sportster for a while. So, while I'm not a "paid" mechanic, I would of thought I knew a little bit about tools. (I even had some Whitworths that someone stole ) Well, as of two days ago, I've been humbled. I learned something new and I could not appreciate learning it one bit more. JIS Japanese Industrial Standard Quote: A Japanese cross-point screwdriver fits a JIS and a Phillips screw. However, a Phillips driver will not fit a JIS screw. It can only fit a Phillips screw snuggly.
The high precision black point cross-point tips fit "JIS" (Japanese Industrial Standard) and standard screw heads perfectly. This ensures a correct fit for fastening and helps prevent cam-outs.
Therefore, these VESSEL drivers are universal so they can be used as a conventional screwdriver (like any other) BUT it has the extra feature of fitting JIS screws!
The Phillips is an American design created and patented by Henry Phillips in 1936. It went onto the production floor first at the Cadillac factory in 1940. One of the attributes that Cadillac engineers liked about the design is that the driver would "cam-out" after a certain torque was reached and not allow over-tightening of the screw. The design offered other advantages like self-centering and the tool, screw engagement was quick, with never more than 90 degrees of rotation needed before the tool started working.
Japanese engineers developed their own cross-point design, but did not view this "cam-out" feature as an advantage. They wanted the benefits of self-centering and quick tool, screw engagement that the cross-point design offered, but torque and over-tightening would be addressed at the operator or tool level, not at the screw tip. This is just my story. If any of you 'one-ups' knew about this before, then good for you. If I've helped someone else with this info, you're welcome. I knew about this. However not to the detail that you posted. Thank you. I just knew they were different. Fwiw I'm just a backyard mechanic, but a machinist by trade. Im my line of work this may not be common knowledge, but its not unknown either. Very cool the way they break it down with the close ups. Thanks!
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| Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:29 am |
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cmica
Site Supporter
Location: I-5 /512
Joined: Thu Dec 8, 2011
Posts: 15491
Real Name: chris
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Oh flipping great, now you gotta know you got a chinesse screw or american screw or japenese screw or whatever screw
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| Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:49 am |
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Old Jim
Site Supporter
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011
Posts: 4094
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cmica wrote: Oh flipping great, now you gotta know you got a chinesse screw or american screw or japenese screw or whatever screw I had a Japanese screw a couiple times...her name was Keiko
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| Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:53 am |
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toys in the toybox
Site Supporter
Location: Tenino
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011
Posts: 4425
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Yup the JIS fits a bit better on the japanese manufactured stuff...wierd huh? I have more than one japanese manufactured toy and i can confirm the standard phillips will give you fits and skinned knuckles on occasion, stripped heads are the funnest result to deal with. Dont get me started on the Reed and Prince
Try getting into hydraulics...thats fun as well. JIS, JIC, BSP, Komatsu, AN, all doing the same thing, about the same sizes and look roughly the same but for the most part NOT interchangeable
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| Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:12 am |
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XDM9cWA
Site Supporter
Location: West Phoenix, AZ
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013
Posts: 3889
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I just know you use gunsmith screwdrivers or else you tend to mar the finish of the gun screws...
if it fits the hole... isn't that all that matters?
seriously that's helpful info.. didn't know there was such a thing
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| Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:54 am |
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TechnoWeenie
Site Supporter
Location: Nova Laboratories
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011
Posts: 19174
Real Name: Johnny 5
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Square drive FTW.
_________________NO DISASSEMBLE!Thomas Paine wrote: "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
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| Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:14 am |
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STED9R
Site Supporter
Location: Puyallup
Joined: Thu Jul 5, 2012
Posts: 3108
Real Name: Glenn(sted)
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Torx, enhanced torx, spline drive......
Seriously, I do this shit for a living. Just tools alone, not counting my $8k box from twenty years ago, is worth more than what I paid for my new diesel crew cab in 2004.
They can't go by any standard and design, engineers need to make money so, a different angle, taper or type every year....
Always trying to improve something that works well in the first place.
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| Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:52 am |
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WaJim
In Memoriam
Location: Tacoma Wa
Joined: Tue Oct 8, 2013
Posts: 16607
Real Name: George Bailey
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Snap-On calls them Posidriv.
The center of the driver is also fatter so a Posidriv screwdriver wont physically fit in a US phillips without stripping because the driver wont drop fully into the slot.
If you ever get on a Snap-On truck the Posidriv are the red handled screwdrivers.
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| Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:47 pm |
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JayDub
Location: I got your 6
Joined: Sun May 1, 2011
Posts: 124
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Sounds like the japs just ripped off Reed & Prince to me! BTW! I'm an older fart that inherited two vices from my father... tools & guns  Well, two that I'll admit to in a public forum!!!  _________________"... I also found ANZAC's $500 donation.  "“Seattle came to our house, ate our turkey, slept with our sister, and took a dump in the middle of the living room floor. ” from 49erswebzone.com
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| Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:54 pm |
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CQBgopher
Site Supporter
Location: WA/MT
Joined: Thu Sep 6, 2012
Posts: 8438
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Not a one upper, but this thread contains info that is not entirely accurate.
Google is your friend when used wisely.
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WTB factory ammo
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375 H&H any
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| Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:18 pm |
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WaJim
In Memoriam
Location: Tacoma Wa
Joined: Tue Oct 8, 2013
Posts: 16607
Real Name: George Bailey
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Meh,
I guess Posidriv and JIS arent the same ........
Googled
_________________
"Remove one freedom per generation and soon you will have no freedom and no one would have noticed."......Carl Marx
"Let us Cross the river and sit in the shade of the trees" .....Stonewall Jackson
T. Jefferson "....the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it's natural manure"
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| Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:14 pm |
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Bently_Coop
Location: Kent Station
Joined: Sun Jun 8, 2014
Posts: 242
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JIS is what you get with a impact driver, the kind used with a hammer. Typically found on brake rotors for Honda's as well.
_________________skey wrote: Actually this is probably a big success for Seattle. They have finally managed to dig a hole they can't get out of.
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| Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:48 pm |
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Mediumrarechicken
Location: Puyallup
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012
Posts: 9063
Real Name: Richard Fitzwelliner
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Bently_Coop wrote: JIS is what you get with a impact driver, the kind used with a hammer. Typically found on brake rotors for Honda's as well. Yay honda brake rotor screws! Soo annoying the first time you do a brake job and can't get a simple screw out.
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| Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:17 pm |
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CQBgopher
Site Supporter
Location: WA/MT
Joined: Thu Sep 6, 2012
Posts: 8438
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toys in the toybox wrote: Yup the JIS fits a bit better on the japanese manufactured stuff...wierd huh? I have more than one japanese manufactured toy and i can confirm the standard phillips will give you fits and skinned knuckles on occasion, stripped heads are the funnest result to deal with. Dont get me started on the Reed and Prince
Try getting into hydraulics...thats fun as well. JIS, JIC, BSP, Komatsu, AN, all doing the same thing, about the same sizes and look roughly the same but for the most part NOT interchangeable Ugh. Don't remind me. JIS and Komatsu use the same flare but JIS is in BSP pitch and Komatsu is metric AN will replace JIC but not the other way around. Steel only, though. JIC and SAE flare look similar but aren't. 37 vs 45. Unless you have a fitting with a double cut then you can use either one. Shall we get into the proper o-rings next? 
_________________
"Well, nobody's perfect." ― Osgood Fielding III
WTB factory ammo
250 Savage (250-3000) any
375 H&H any
7x57 (7mm Mauser, 275 Rigby) 175's preferred
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| Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:43 pm |
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