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Why our children don't think there are moral facts
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Site Supporter   Location: East of Japan, not by much. Joined: Fri Jun 3, 2011 Posts: 13009 
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Soly.
All realities are real. Some realities are more real than others. Sheesh .You done gone all George Orwell on us. Step away from your " real-er " reality - everything is real in the real world. _________________ Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day. Give a man a fishing pole, and he will drink too much beer, get tangled in fish line, hook himself in the nose casting, fall overboard, and either drown, or, go home hungry and wet. Give a man a case of dynamite, and he will feed the whole town for a year! BE ON NOTICE: PRIVACY NOTICE: Warning - any person and/or institution and/or Agent and/or Agency of any governmental structure including but not limited to the United States Federal Government also using or monitoring/using this website or any of its associated websites, you do NOT have my permission to utilize any of my profile information nor any of the content contained herein including, but not limited to my photos, and/or the comments made about my photos or any other "picture" art posted on my profile. You are hereby notified that you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying, distributing, disseminating, or taking any other action against me with regard to this profile and the contents herein. The foregoing prohibitions also apply to your employee, agent, student or any personnel under your direction or control. The contents of this profile are PRIVATE and legally privileged and confidential information, and the violation of my personal privacy is punishable by law. UCC 1-103 1-308 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED WITHOUT PREJUDICE |
| Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:08 pm |
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Site Supporter  Location: NE WA Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 Posts: 5667 Real Name: The Dude
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solyanik wrote: DocNugent wrote: Could you not see the Overton Window? I define 'left' as Statist (big centralized government) and 'right' as Libertarian (maximum individual freedom). I think you're using the old European understanding of left and right. As my Nolan Chart (below, the star is where I scored) indicates, I'm not that interested in 'liberal-conservative' differences. The greater impact on our lives is the vertical axis, and both parties are headed 'downward' . . . . No, I cannot use the Overton Window, because according to your interpretation, Nazies, Franco, Pinochet, Mussolini are all left wingers. Which is a spectacularly and obviously wrong statement. You need to join the reality-based community at some point... Please don't tell me you think fascists and communists align at opposite poles. Their beliefs, both on paper and in action, are almost identical. _________________ "Wherever you go, there you are." |
| Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:11 pm |
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Site Supporter  Location: Olympia Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 Posts: 16026 Real Name: Steve
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So Yeah. WWII. Fascists and Communists. Bitter enemies.
_________________ "I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said." - William Buckley, Jr. "...steam, artillery and revolvers give to civilized man an irresistible power." -Perry Collins |
| Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:20 pm |
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Site Supporter  Location: WA/MT Joined: Thu Sep 6, 2012 Posts: 8438
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kf7mjf wrote: So Yeah. WWII. Fascists and Communists. Bitter enemies. Sort of. Things may have been different had one bad guy not gotten greedy. _________________ "Well, nobody's perfect." ― Osgood Fielding III WTB factory ammo 250 Savage (250-3000) any 375 H&H any 7x57 (7mm Mauser, 275 Rigby) 175's preferred |
| Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:47 pm |
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Site Supporter / FFL Dealer  Location: Seattle Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 Posts: 3418
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Ummm... You guys know what fascism is? As in, a definition? What are fascists' view on private property? How do they differ from that of communists?
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| Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:54 pm |
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Site Supporter Location: Olympia Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 Posts: 16026 Real Name: Steve
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dan360 wrote: kf7mjf wrote: So Yeah. WWII. Fascists and Communists. Bitter enemies. Sort of. Things may have been different had one bad guy not gotten greedy. Not really... _________________ "I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said." - William Buckley, Jr. "...steam, artillery and revolvers give to civilized man an irresistible power." -Perry Collins |
| Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:01 pm |
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Site Supporter Location: Olympia Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 Posts: 16026 Real Name: Steve
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Here is a real nice, really simple definition of socialism, capitalism, communism, and fascism. I expect much wailing and gnashing of teeth over them.
http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/engl_258 ... efined.htm _________________ "I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said." - William Buckley, Jr. "...steam, artillery and revolvers give to civilized man an irresistible power." -Perry Collins |
| Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:15 pm |
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Site Supporter Location: WA/MT Joined: Thu Sep 6, 2012 Posts: 8438
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solyanik wrote: Ummm... You guys know what fascism is? As in, a definition? What are fascists' view on private property? How do they differ from that of communists? It's a difficult word to define correctly. By most definitions is is extreme "right wing" compared to Communism being extreme "left wing" although there are people who claim it to be a middle-left leaning ideology. As far as private property, or private enterprise, under most definitions of a Fascist State, they are both allowed and encouraged, as long as the property and enterprise are kept in line with the ultimate goal of the State. So, if your Fascist State is the #1 apple producer in the world, and your private enterprise grows apples, you may not garner much favor from the State if you decide to cut all the apple trees down and start growing almonds. _________________ "Well, nobody's perfect." ― Osgood Fielding III WTB factory ammo 250 Savage (250-3000) any 375 H&H any 7x57 (7mm Mauser, 275 Rigby) 175's preferred |
| Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:25 pm |
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Site Supporter Location: WA/MT Joined: Thu Sep 6, 2012 Posts: 8438
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kf7mjf wrote: dan360 wrote: kf7mjf wrote: So Yeah. WWII. Fascists and Communists. Bitter enemies. Sort of. Things may have been different had one bad guy not gotten greedy. Not really... I don't think Stalin saw the "allies" as an "ally" for anything other than an opportunity to smash on Hitler over the whole Poland thing, and subsequent 'sneak attack'. Like in pro wrestling when a bad guy and a good guy hook up to eliminate a REALLY bad guy, then after the REALLY bad guy is thrown over the top rope they go back to not liking each other again. _________________ "Well, nobody's perfect." ― Osgood Fielding III WTB factory ammo 250 Savage (250-3000) any 375 H&H any 7x57 (7mm Mauser, 275 Rigby) 175's preferred |
| Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:30 pm |
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Site Supporter  Location: Kansas City Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 Posts: 2786 Real Name: Brad
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solyanik wrote: DSynger wrote: Her illegal activities back in the 70's to try to stamp out pornography in San Fran also show how extreme she is to her own views. So now that we agree that Feinstein is no progressive (you wouldn't expect a progressive to try and ban porn, would you? For a liberal, First Amendment is even more important than Second Amendment to a conservative) - would you like me to go and dissect Pelosi's political positions? Of can you read her website yourself. Pelosi is nothing even close to a extremist. She is very much a centrist, and would make a reasonable Republican Senator in 1970s. Ah... so it was the Conservatives that were opposed to Citizens United, which the ACLU supported. The Liberals were all for removing any type of restriction on government regulation of the 1st Amendment. Because I thought it was the other way around... 1st Amendment support is not one side or the other, they both use to their own ends. I know many Conservatives who use the 1st Amendment for religious purposes. I think you're argument is moot... While mine still stands that Feinstein is extreme. She had people associated with the porn establishments in San Fran arrested illegally. It got to the point where the courts recognized this and would drop the cases when they came up in court. I don't even think I mentioned Pelosi... I recognize that there are more conservative extremists in Congress than liberal ones. I think religion plays a big part of that. |
| Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:58 pm |
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Site Supporter  Location: Lynnwood/Bothell Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 Posts: 8688 Real Name: Curtis
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We now return you to our regularly scheduled program: "Why our children don't think there are moral facts"
Can a moral value judgment be both opinion AND fact? Discuss. |
| Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:05 pm |
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Site Supporter Location: Olympia Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 Posts: 16026 Real Name: Steve
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It is a fact a moral value judgement is moral to whichever group codifies it in it's morals.
Certain morals can be both opinion and fact, namely those which are not universal natural law constants. Fact to whichever groups adhere to them, and opinion to everyone who does not. _________________ "I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said." - William Buckley, Jr. "...steam, artillery and revolvers give to civilized man an irresistible power." -Perry Collins |
| Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:07 pm |
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Site Supporter Location: Kansas City Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 Posts: 2786 Real Name: Brad
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kf7mjf wrote: Fact to whichever groups adhere to them, and opinion to everyone who does not. Doesn't that just about sum it? It's kinda like the white and gold dress picture, I would bet money the dress is white and gold, that's just how my eyes see it. Regardless of what I saw with my own eyes, it was the truth... http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/the-science-behind-the-black-and-blue--or-white-and-gold--dress-405695555960 |
| Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:51 pm |
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Site Supporter / FFL Dealer Location: Seattle Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 Posts: 3418
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DSynger wrote: solyanik wrote: DSynger wrote: Her illegal activities back in the 70's to try to stamp out pornography in San Fran also show how extreme she is to her own views. So now that we agree that Feinstein is no progressive (you wouldn't expect a progressive to try and ban porn, would you? For a liberal, First Amendment is even more important than Second Amendment to a conservative) - would you like me to go and dissect Pelosi's political positions? Of can you read her website yourself. Pelosi is nothing even close to a extremist. She is very much a centrist, and would make a reasonable Republican Senator in 1970s. Ah... so it was the Conservatives that were opposed to Citizens United, which the ACLU supported. The Liberals were all for removing any type of restriction on government regulation of the 1st Amendment. Because I thought it was the other way around... 1st Amendment support is not one side or the other, they both use to their own ends. I know many Conservatives who use the 1st Amendment for religious purposes. I think you're argument is moot... While mine still stands that Feinstein is extreme. She had people associated with the porn establishments in San Fran arrested illegally. It got to the point where the courts recognized this and would drop the cases when they came up in court. I don't even think I mentioned Pelosi... I recognize that there are more conservative extremists in Congress than liberal ones. I think religion plays a big part of that. Feinstein IS extreme - extremely stupid, but she is not at all extremely liberal. She is not even mildly liberal. Wrt Citizens United, the position of Liberals is that corporations are not people and so First Amendment, as well as any other human rights, do not apply to them. |
| Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:06 am |
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Site Supporter / FFL Dealer Location: Seattle Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 Posts: 3418
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dan360 wrote: solyanik wrote: Ummm... You guys know what fascism is? As in, a definition? What are fascists' view on private property? How do they differ from that of communists? It's a difficult word to define correctly. By most definitions is is extreme "right wing" compared to Communism being extreme "left wing" although there are people who claim it to be a middle-left leaning ideology. As far as private property, or private enterprise, under most definitions of a Fascist State, they are both allowed and encouraged, as long as the property and enterprise are kept in line with the ultimate goal of the State. So, if your Fascist State is the #1 apple producer in the world, and your private enterprise grows apples, you may not garner much favor from the State if you decide to cut all the apple trees down and start growing almonds. It's very, very easy. The link that k7 supplied does it perfectly well. |
| Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:09 am |
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