American Bar Association Wants Illegals to Practice Law

[Guntrader]

Let me get this straight.....So a legal association wants to let illegals practice law??? Guess everything is OK as long as they are paying dues...............

https://lawnewz.com/uncategorized/bar-a ... ctice-law/

On Monday, The American Bar Association’s House of Delegates passed a resolution demanding that Congress let undocumented immigrants practice law. The bar suggests that lawmakers should add this block of text, written by the ABA’s Law Student Division, to 8 U.S.C. 5 § 1621(d):

A state court vested with exclusive authority to regulate admission to the bar may, by rule, order, or other affirmative act, permit an undocumented alien seeking legal status to obtain a professional license to practice law in that jurisdiction.

[PMB]

Amazing... I do not get worked up much about undocumented aliens (illegals to some of you), and this still strikes me as insane.
If they are in the process of becoming legal residents, just wait until the process is complete.
Bizarre.

[Alpine]

Amazing... I do not get worked up much about undocumented aliens (illegals to some of you), and this still strikes me as insane.
If they are in the process of becoming legal residents, just wait until the process is complete.
Bizarre.

You realize the very act of coming here or overstaying a visa is a crime (punishable by jail time and a fine), right?
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325

You also realize that most of them who seek employment are also committing identity theft or fraud, right?
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/i ... t-felonies

The vast majority of illegal aliens use fraudulently obtained Social Security numbers. They possess fake drivers’ licenses, phony “green cards,” fraudulent birth certificates and any other documents that U.S. citizens and legal residents have. In addition, they falsify I-9 forms under penalty of perjury. Thus, the average illegal alien routinely commits multiple felonies –forgery, Social Security fraud, identity theft, and perjury.

This criminal activity is routinely swept under the rug in order to protect the myth of the law abiding illegal alien. However, when pushed, even the strongest supporters of illegal aliens are forced to acknowledge that the vast majority of illegal aliens commit multiple felonies. In fact, the Social Security Administration and New York Times report that approximately 75 percent of illegal aliens have fraudulently obtained Social Security numbers which is a felony. The ACLU accepts this figure and uses it to show that illegal aliens pay payroll taxes.

Is a burglar an "undocumented resource gatherer" or a criminal?

All illegal aliens are criminals, except for the young kids that get dragged here. However those kids are still, BY TREATY LAW, citizens of their home countries and under their jurisdiction and should be sent back to be in the custody of those governments.

So should someone who commits social security fraud really be given a bar license?

[PMB]

Amazing... I do not get worked up much about undocumented aliens (illegals to some of you), and this still strikes me as insane.
If they are in the process of becoming legal residents, just wait until the process is complete.
Bizarre.

You realize the very act of coming here or overstaying a visa is a crime (punishable by jail time and a fine), right?
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325

You also realize that most of them who seek employment are also committing identity theft or fraud, right?
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/i ... t-felonies

The vast majority of illegal aliens use fraudulently obtained Social Security numbers. They possess fake drivers’ licenses, phony “green cards,” fraudulent birth certificates and any other documents that U.S. citizens and legal residents have. In addition, they falsify I-9 forms under penalty of perjury. Thus, the average illegal alien routinely commits multiple felonies –forgery, Social Security fraud, identity theft, and perjury.

This criminal activity is routinely swept under the rug in order to protect the myth of the law abiding illegal alien. However, when pushed, even the strongest supporters of illegal aliens are forced to acknowledge that the vast majority of illegal aliens commit multiple felonies. In fact, the Social Security Administration and New York Times report that approximately 75 percent of illegal aliens have fraudulently obtained Social Security numbers which is a felony. The ACLU accepts this figure and uses it to show that illegal aliens pay payroll taxes.

Is a burglar an "undocumented resource gatherer" or a criminal?

All illegal aliens are criminals, except for the young kids that get dragged here. However those kids are still, BY TREATY LAW, citizens of their home countries and under their jurisdiction and should be sent back to be in the custody of those governments.

So should someone who commits social security fraud really be given a bar license?

I have a suggestion Alpine. How about you stop thinking that just because I think differently about a certain topic than you do that I am automatically wrong about its level of importance.
I know far more about this topic than you may realize. You do not need to correct me on the level of importance that I place upon it.
I am very well aware of the two items that you felt the need to educate me about.

[Alpine]

I'm sorry but I was very confused when you used the term "undocumented aliens." These are almost all criminal aliens, with exception of the children, and by treaty law those children are supposed to be sent back to the care of their home governments. The statutes are clear.

Also, there are almost no legitimate ways that these people can become "legal residents" or even seek relief from deportation, short of extraordinary executive actions, many of which were thrown out by the courts.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/politics/ ... index.html

I am not trying to be hostile or combative, and I apologize if my tone was inadvertently so, but I've studied this all my life and our laws are clear, now, just because those laws haven't been properly enforced for a while does not make these laws go away.

The reason I place such high importance on this is that I have known several lives that were destroyed by these criminal scum. They commit 12% and higher of the murders, despite being only 3% of the population. 20% of the kidnappings.

[PMB]

I'm sorry but I was very confused when you used the term "undocumented aliens." These are almost all criminal aliens, with exception of the children, and by treaty law those children are supposed to be sent back to the care of their home governments. The statutes are clear.

Do you know what it takes for someone who has legally entered the USA but accidentally or intentionally overstayed their visa, even by decades?
It is called an Adjustment of Status. It is not called "drag the scum fuckers off to prison to break rocks."
Maybe some people think it should be... I am not one of them and I never will be, for reasons that I have carefully (I thought) explained.
I will try to summarize with an imperfect analogy.

Not all gun owners are criminals, so I do not think that gun owners should be jailed.
Not all guns are used in crimes - > the analogies and allegories that can be written for this are so many...
The thought process covers why I bristle at the fucking asinine phrase "gun crimes" and "gun violence."

Also, there are almost no legitimate ways that these people can become "legal residents" or even seek relief from deportation, short of extraordinary executive actions, many of which were thrown out by the courts.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/politics/ ... index.html

You're simply wrong about this, and I do not mean to tell you in a harsh way. If you're down this way, please feel welcome to stop by for a hot cup of coffee, tea, or a cold beer. If none of those beverages suit you, I will run down to the grocery store and find one to your taste.
I won't clutter up a thread with personal anecdotes, but suffice it to say that I know this area very well. Not from news articles, statistics and main stream media.

I've studied this all my life and our laws are clear, now, just because those laws haven't been properly enforced for a while does not make these laws go away.

How many laws are there regarding immigration? Do you think that you fully understand every single one of them? Are any of them, and their concomitant programs conflicting in words/meanings?
If not, then there is no longer a need for immigration courts, lawyers, and further discussions in any legislature. The problem seems to have been solved?

The reason I place such high importance on this is that I have known several lives that were destroyed by these criminal scum. They commit 12% and higher of the murders, despite being only 3% of the population. 20% of the kidnappings.

Personal anecdotes are inappropriate for using as a foot wide brush. I do not see illegal alien crimes the same way that I do not see "gun crimes."
If you want to compare personal anecdotes, I personally and closely have known hundreds of illegal aliens, and I have NEVER personally known someone who has had their life destroyed by an illegal alien.
It does happen... and it is more than regrettable. It is horrid beyond belief.
US citizens horribly destroy their fellow US citizens lives also.

There is no difference to the destroyed lives.

It is my OPINION and it is not arrived at lightly. I do not "correct" people who have come to different conclusions and place different weights on the importance of things.
I offer facts when I see them as important, or misrepresented. You do too.
If I feel that my OPINION hasn't been stated well, I'll try to persuade. I do not say that someone is factually wrong about their opinion.

I appreciate when facts are presented along with a persuasive argument. You do that often and you do it well. I give you my genuine thanks for those efforts sir.

[Barfly]

The only thing more disturbing to me than this is illegal immigrants voting. This is fucking absurd! Non-citizens have no rights under the Constitution. Have no right to vote. Have no right to practice AMERICAN LAW. LEGAL immigrants are a completely different story. They are citizens.
I am sick and tired of the sob story surrounding border jumpers and people who "accidentally" overstay their visas and the bleeding hearts that jump at any chance to show sympathy for them. People are well aware of the term of their visa, the only part of overstaying that is an accident is allowing themselves to be caught.
Even those who are "just trying to find a better life" and who aren't violent or otherwise criminals, but are still here illegally, are still criminals.

DEPORT THEM ALL, SECURE THE BORDER. EXECUTE HABITUAL OFFENDERS

[PMB]

The only thing more disturbing to me than this is illegal immigrants voting.

Illegal voting is far more important to me, but that doesn't reduce my disbelief at the suggestion that people here in an undocumented/illegal status should be allowed to practice law.

Being less horrified by one than the other is akin to comparing how much a person is against choosing between against stepping off a :
1.) 10 foot wall
2.) 100 foot cliff

I can be less opposed to one without being for either.

This is fucking absurd!

Agree 100%.

Non-citizens have no rights under the Constitution.

Disagree 100%. The courts seem to side with me on this, but that does not mean that I am right.
The courts also upheld NFA and GCA, so I take no pride or even comfort at this strange fellowship.

The world was a different place in the late 1700s... When the Founding Fathers drafted those important documents they didn't foresee the immigration problems that we face today. At the time, they strongly desired and welcomed immigrants by the shiploads if they could get 'em.
When the BoRs and Declaration of Independence were written, the intent was to help identify HUMAN RIGHTS.
Our staggering population growth and limited jobs/resources have led to a different viewpoint on immigration.

LEGAL immigrants are a completely different story. They are citizens.

There are many people who are here in the USA legally who are also not citizens. Sometimes for their whole lives.

I am sick and tired of the sob story surrounding border jumpers and people who "accidentally" overstay their visas and the bleeding hearts that jump at any chance to show sympathy for them. People are well aware of the term of their visa, the only part of overstaying that is an accident is allowing themselves to be caught.

Since I am in the small minority here who has voiced an opinion to the contrary, may I assume that you are referring to me as giving a sob story, and that you think I am a bleeding heart?
Again, I have been intimately involved with cases going back about 30 years now. The "deport all illegal aliens by dropping them without 'chutes from 35,000 feet over their own country" is a simple blanket view that simply doesn't understand the complexities of how these cases happened.
It sounds good though, eh?
I am not opposed to the 35,000 foot drop for those who have committed violent crimes. I quite like that idea. No bleeding heart here.
I do not conflate an immigration status with the Right To Life or Death.

Simple solutions to complex problems...

[Guntrader]

You don't even have to be a lawyer to be a member of The American Bar Association.
Sounds like a fucking racket, like the BBB.

"Individuals interested in the legal profession but not U.S.-licensed attorneys or students.
Annual Dues $181"

[Barfly]

The only thing more disturbing to me than this is illegal immigrants voting.

Illegal voting is far more important to me, but that doesn't reduce my disbelief at the suggestion that people here in an undocumented/illegal status should be allowed to practice law.

Being less horrified by one than the other is akin to comparing how much a person is against choosing between against stepping off a :
1.) 10 foot wall
2.) 100 foot cliff

I can be less opposed to one without being for either.

Ha, that statement was just a measure of how messed up I think this through process is.

This is fucking absurd!

Agree 100%.

Non-citizens have no rights under the Constitution.

Disagree 100%. The courts seem to side with me on this, but that does not mean that I am right.

My belief doesn't necessarily make me right either, but it is my belief, so I don't really care about what others opinions are. :-)

The courts also upheld NFA and GCA, so I take no pride or even comfort at this strange fellowship.

The world was a different place in the late 1700s... When the Founding Fathers drafted those important documents they didn't foresee the immigration problems that we face today. At the time, they strongly desired and welcomed immigrants by the shiploads if they could get 'em.
When the BoRs and Declaration of Independence were written, the intent was to help identify HUMAN RIGHTS.
Our staggering population growth and limited jobs/resources have led to a different viewpoint on immigration.

I am 100% for LEGAL immigration.

That is a different story. Still, The courts have been effectively rewriting the constitution as of late, and I think it's pure bullshit.

LEGAL immigrants are a completely different story. They are citizens.

There are many people who are here in the USA legally who are also not citizens. Sometimes for their whole lives.

Okay, i will agree there. Let me amend that statement to say: Legal Immigrants are a completely different story. Those who become citizens are entitled to all the rights afforded to every citizen of the USA. Legal non-citizens should not practice law, nor vote, nor enforce law.

I am sick and tired of the sob story surrounding border jumpers and people who "accidentally" overstay their visas and the bleeding hearts that jump at any chance to show sympathy for them. People are well aware of the term of their visa, the only part of overstaying that is an accident is allowing themselves to be caught.

Since I am in the small minority here who has voiced an opinion to the contrary, may I assume that you are referring to me as giving a sob story, and that you think I am a bleeding heart?
Again, I have been intimately involved with cases going back about 30 years now. The "deport all illegal aliens by dropping them without 'chutes from 35,000 feet over their own country" is a simple blanket view that simply doesn't understand the complexities of how these cases happened.
It sounds good though, eh?
I am not opposed to the 35,000 foot drop for those who have committed violent crimes. I quite like that idea. No bleeding heart here.
I do not conflate an immigration status with the Right To Life or Death.

I wasn't calling you out as a bleeding heart. :-) I refer to the masses advocating for illegal immigrant "rights" as the bleeding hearts. I will say that your mention of those who "accidentally overstay their visas" is BS from my point of view, especially if it is a long term "accident"...
Oh, and I said deport all of them, and execute the habitual offenders... the ones who just keep coming back again and again.

Simple solutions to complex problems...

[OhShoot!]

I'm sorry but I was very confused when you used the term "undocumented aliens." These are almost all criminal aliens, with exception of the children, and by treaty law those children are supposed to be sent back to the care of their home governments. The statutes are clear.

Do you know what it takes for someone who has legally entered the USA but accidentally or intentionally overstayed their visa, even by decades?
It is called an Adjustment of Status. It is not called "drag the scum fuckers off to prison to break rocks."
Maybe some people think it should be... I am not one of them and I never will be, for reasons that I have carefully (I thought) explained.
I will try to summarize with an imperfect analogy.

Not all gun owners are criminals, so I do not think that gun owners should be jailed.
Not all guns are used in crimes - > the analogies and allegories that can be written for this are so many...
The thought process covers why I bristle at the fucking asinine phrase "gun crimes" and "gun violence."

Also, there are almost no legitimate ways that these people can become "legal residents" or even seek relief from deportation, short of extraordinary executive actions, many of which were thrown out by the courts.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/politics/ ... index.html

You're simply wrong about this, and I do not mean to tell you in a harsh way. If you're down this way, please feel welcome to stop by for a hot cup of coffee, tea, or a cold beer. If none of those beverages suit you, I will run down to the grocery store and find one to your taste.
I won't clutter up a thread with personal anecdotes, but suffice it to say that I know this area very well. Not from news articles, statistics and main stream media.

I've studied this all my life and our laws are clear, now, just because those laws haven't been properly enforced for a while does not make these laws go away.

How many laws are there regarding immigration? Do you think that you fully understand every single one of them? Are any of them, and their concomitant programs conflicting in words/meanings?
If not, then there is no longer a need for immigration courts, lawyers, and further discussions in any legislature. The problem seems to have been solved?

The reason I place such high importance on this is that I have known several lives that were destroyed by these criminal scum. They commit 12% and higher of the murders, despite being only 3% of the population. 20% of the kidnappings.

Personal anecdotes are inappropriate for using as a foot wide brush. I do not see illegal alien crimes the same way that I do not see "gun crimes."
If you want to compare personal anecdotes, I personally and closely have known hundreds of illegal aliens, and I have NEVER personally known someone who has had their life destroyed by an illegal alien.
It does happen... and it is more than regrettable. It is horrid beyond belief.
US citizens horribly destroy their fellow US citizens lives also.

There is no difference to the destroyed lives.

It is my OPINION and it is not arrived at lightly. I do not "correct" people who have come to different conclusions and place different weights on the importance of things.
I offer facts when I see them as important, or misrepresented. You do too.
If I feel that my OPINION hasn't been stated well, I'll try to persuade. I do not say that someone is factually wrong about their opinion.

I appreciate when facts are presented along with a persuasive argument. You do that often and you do it well. I give you my genuine thanks for those efforts sir.

Damn PMB! You got your words together well in this one. Hats off!

[Alpine]

I'm sorry but I was very confused when you used the term "undocumented aliens." These are almost all criminal aliens, with exception of the children, and by treaty law those children are supposed to be sent back to the care of their home governments. The statutes are clear.

Do you know what it takes for someone who has legally entered the USA but accidentally or intentionally overstayed their visa, even by decades?
It is called an Adjustment of Status. It is not called "drag the scum fuckers off to prison to break rocks."
Maybe some people think it should be... I am not one of them and I never will be, for reasons that I have carefully (I thought) explained.
I will try to summarize with an imperfect analogy.

Not all gun owners are criminals, so I do not think that gun owners should be jailed.
Not all guns are used in crimes - > the analogies and allegories that can be written for this are so many...
The thought process covers why I bristle at the fucking asinine phrase "gun crimes" and "gun violence."

Also, there are almost no legitimate ways that these people can become "legal residents" or even seek relief from deportation, short of extraordinary executive actions, many of which were thrown out by the courts.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/politics/ ... index.html

You're simply wrong about this, and I do not mean to tell you in a harsh way. If you're down this way, please feel welcome to stop by for a hot cup of coffee, tea, or a cold beer. If none of those beverages suit you, I will run down to the grocery store and find one to your taste.
I won't clutter up a thread with personal anecdotes, but suffice it to say that I know this area very well. Not from news articles, statistics and main stream media.

I've studied this all my life and our laws are clear, now, just because those laws haven't been properly enforced for a while does not make these laws go away.

How many laws are there regarding immigration? Do you think that you fully understand every single one of them? Are any of them, and their concomitant programs conflicting in words/meanings?
If not, then there is no longer a need for immigration courts, lawyers, and further discussions in any legislature. The problem seems to have been solved?

The reason I place such high importance on this is that I have known several lives that were destroyed by these criminal scum. They commit 12% and higher of the murders, despite being only 3% of the population. 20% of the kidnappings.

Personal anecdotes are inappropriate for using as a foot wide brush. I do not see illegal alien crimes the same way that I do not see "gun crimes."
If you want to compare personal anecdotes, I personally and closely have known hundreds of illegal aliens, and I have NEVER personally known someone who has had their life destroyed by an illegal alien.
It does happen... and it is more than regrettable. It is horrid beyond belief.
US citizens also horribly destroy their fellow US citizens lives also.

There is no difference to the destroyed lives.

It is my OPINION and it is not arrived at lightly. I do not "correct" people who have come to different conclusions and place different weights on the importance of things.
I offer facts when I see them as important, or misrepresented. You do too.
If I feel that my OPINION hasn't been stated well, I'll try to persuade. I do not say that someone is factually wrong about their opinion.

I appreciate when facts are presented along with a persuasive argument. You do that often and you do it well. I give you my genuine thanks for those efforts sir.

Interesting reading on Adjustment of Status and the relatively tiny portion of the population it applies to. Note the many ways someone is not eligible for it:
http://www.immihelp.com/greencard/adjustmentofstatus/

Given the criminal stats on illegal aliens, every person here illegally that is subject to deportation should be deported because their propensity for committing violent crime is several times higher than legal immigrants and US citizens. The numbers are rock solid.
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/c ... ary-cities

As to your analogy about gun owners, I'm not sure that's apt as nearly all illegal aliens are, by definition under US statute, criminals. ( with exception of small children who we are under treaty obligation to return to their home countries).

There's also the rule of law aspect. If we are expected to pay taxes and follow gun laws then we should expect the government to enforce immigration law. If people believe the law is unfair then go through Congress and change it.

I would love to chat with you sometime, and likewise, if you're ever up near Bellevue/Seattle let me know I'd love to have a chat with you over coffee. You seem like a very thoughtful person.

I know I do not know all immigration laws but I do know from when I worked in Congress in Constituent Services helping with ICE CONGRINT cases, there are VERY few carve-outs on balance that apply to only the tiniest portion of the illegal alien population.

I am willing to let go of my personal anecdotes and focus on the crime stats. I stand by them.

[PMB]

Interesting reading on Adjustment of Status and the relatively tiny portion of the population it applies to. Note the many ways someone is not eligible for it:
http://www.immihelp.com/greencard/adjustmentofstatus/

Given the criminal stats on illegal aliens, every person here illegally that is subject to deportation should be deported because their propensity for committing violent crime is several times higher than legal immigrants and US citizens. The numbers are rock solid.
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/c ... ary-cities

As to your analogy about gun owners, I'm not sure that's apt as nearly all illegal aliens are, by definition under US statute, criminals. ( with exception of small children who we are under treaty obligation to return to their home countries).

There's also the rule of law aspect. If we are expected to pay taxes and follow gun laws then we should expect the government to enforce immigration law. If people believe the law is unfair then go through Congress and change it.

I would love to chat with you sometime, and likewise, if you're ever up near Bellevue/Seattle let me know I'd love to have a chat with you over coffee. You seem like a very thoughtful person.

I know I do not know all immigration laws but I do know from when I worked in Congress in Constituent Services helping with ICE CONGRINT cases, there are VERY few carve-outs on balance that apply to only the tiniest portion of the illegal alien population.

I am willing to let go of my personal anecdotes and focus on the crime stats. I stand by them.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I have come to expect well thought out responses from you even when faced with emotional arguments.
I agree that my 2A analogy is imperfect- I admitted that as I introduced it.
Your experiences are far different than mine. That's to be expected.

I have never said or even hinted that I am for more illegal immigration. I repeat my comparison to choosing between stepping off a 10' wall or a 100' cliff. I would fight far harder to stay away from one of those.
2A remains my #1 focus, and I personally don't like the phrase "illegal alien" even though it is an accepted legal term.
BTW, I oppose the use of the phrase for a similar reason that I don't use "illegal gun" or "gun violence."
Here is a good article explaining the use of "illegal alien" . It supports your use of it, which I did not object to.
http://www.heritage.org/immigration/com ... egal-alien

Common use doesn't mean that I have to embrace it.

[PTmorgan]

Now THIS is the kind of thread that used to be the norm on Waguns several years ago! Good job, gentlemen. I appreciate your respect and well-articulated points of view.

[Alpine]

I'd also like to say on a personal level that I do have compassion for what many of these people are going through fleeing their countries, but that is another reason I believe in fully enforcing our laws.

Illegal immigration is a pressure-release valve that keeps many of these South and Central American hellholes from getting to a boiling point where their people would otherwise say "enough!" and they'd rise up and overthrow their corrupt regimes and put down the Cartels once and for all. Yes, such revolutions might be bloody but they are far less bloody than allowing the current situation to continue there for decades or centuries longer. Many people down there die in the Cartel wars or from general lawlessness and the corrupt regimes.Would we rather have a few thousand or tens of thousands die quickly and then we'd have a stable Central/South America as good regional neighbors or would we rather see millions die over the next 50-100 years?

If we sealed our southern border today and started tracking and deporting all visa overstays immediately, I predict you'd see a "Latin Spring" within a year.