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 Kitsap corrections officer shoots himself in the Leg. 
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golddigger14s wrote:
I probably can't change your mind. I don't have stock in the company, so whether you buy their holster has no effect on me. I just know what I like. I use various holsters depending on what I'm carrying, and how I'm carrying. If you can't draw from ANY holster without putting your finger in the trigger then you already have issues. Like I said after more than ten years I've never had an issue. If one youtube video convinces you a product of any sort is bad than you need to do a bit more research. I can find youtube videos of all sorts of gun related screw ups. There are a lot of gun related screw ups that don't even involve a holster.

The xst doesn't seem like a bad holster, but with all my male/female mounts/adapters I'm not going to change now. I'll stick with my Serpa, & Omnivore holsters. The Omnivore is the only holster that will fit ALL my guns with a rail. PMR-30, 92A1, and Canik SFX.

I'm just trying to understand the outright hate for the Serpa?

Have you even tried it?

Just like the people that hate on Hi-Point. Most haven't even touched one.


I like my Serpa too and have had one for a dozen years or more (I'm old and can't remember when I bought it :bigsmile: ). As you said, if you use it as it was designed to be used it leaves the finger right where it should be. Only way to ND a weapon with the Serpa is to try and re-holster with your finger on the trigger which small corner of my brain is thinking that's what happened in this case.

Re-holstering has proven to be a dangerous process for many shooters with several documented deaths due to ND's. So much so that the majority of public ranges prohibit re-holstering a firearm on their range. If you draw your carry weapon to fire a few rounds they want you to clear it and transport it back to your vehicle with slide open and an OBI (Open bolt/slide/cylinder Indicator) inserted in the chamber.

Problem comes with DA/SA firearms where the hammer remains cocked after firing a round. Finger is still on trigger and shooter inserts in holster. Finger is caught on holster, weapon is angled toward leg, fires, and at that point the only good thing (usually) is that the shooter didn't shoot himself in his junk.

When I go to the range to give my pistols a workout I am amazed at the number of new divots in the floor as well as the various holes in the tableand side/front shields in the shooting position. It isn't the holster, just the shooter failing in their "finger discipline.


BTW, one sure cure would be to require all holsters be located so the barrel points straight at the family jewels. ND's while drawing and reholstering would drop drastically. For those who still have the problem, at least we won't see their future generations having the same problem. :bigsmile:

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Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:17 am
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Manual safety for the win.


Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:02 pm
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The SERPA's main problem is the way it works. If you only use it as a range toy, or are sure to keep it clean and never get caught in a dust storm, or in a snowstorm, you will probably be fine. Add some stress of a bad guy or a timer, then add in a couple specks of dirt so the button doesn't move easily and you have the recipe for a negligent discharge. Push something hard right now with a finger. Did you use the tip of your finger or the pad? I bet it was the tip. That's how we have been pushing things like buttons for all of our lives. When that SERPA release doesn't want to move, the natural reaction is to press with the tip of the finger. Then when... actually if... it released the gun, your finger is in the position to slip right in to the trigger guard. More on some guns, less on others.

And that assumes it will work. Get them dirty enough, just fall in the dirt one time... or as a cop in the NE showed, snow, and it might not release at all. Some people have had to cut their pistols out with bolt cutters after getting hit by a sand storm. Doesn't seem to ever have happened with something like a Safariland ALS or a basic thumb break.


Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:21 pm
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deadshot2 wrote:
golddigger14s wrote:
I probably can't change your mind. I don't have stock in the company, so whether you buy their holster has no effect on me. I just know what I like. I use various holsters depending on what I'm carrying, and how I'm carrying. If you can't draw from ANY holster without putting your finger in the trigger then you already have issues. Like I said after more than ten years I've never had an issue. If one youtube video convinces you a product of any sort is bad than you need to do a bit more research. I can find youtube videos of all sorts of gun related screw ups. There are a lot of gun related screw ups that don't even involve a holster.

The xst doesn't seem like a bad holster, but with all my male/female mounts/adapters I'm not going to change now. I'll stick with my Serpa, & Omnivore holsters. The Omnivore is the only holster that will fit ALL my guns with a rail. PMR-30, 92A1, and Canik SFX.

I'm just trying to understand the outright hate for the Serpa?

Have you even tried it?

Just like the people that hate on Hi-Point. Most haven't even touched one.


I like my Serpa too and have had one for a dozen years or more (I'm old and can't remember when I bought it :bigsmile: ). As you said, if you use it as it was designed to be used it leaves the finger right where it should be. Only way to ND a weapon with the Serpa is to try and re-holster with your finger on the trigger which small corner of my brain is thinking that's what happened in this case.

Re-holstering has proven to be a dangerous process for many shooters with several documented deaths due to ND's. So much so that the majority of public ranges prohibit re-holstering a firearm on their range. If you draw your carry weapon to fire a few rounds they want you to clear it and transport it back to your vehicle with slide open and an OBI (Open bolt/slide/cylinder Indicator) inserted in the chamber.

Problem comes with DA/SA firearms where the hammer remains cocked after firing a round. Finger is still on trigger and shooter inserts in holster. Finger is caught on holster, weapon is angled toward leg, fires, and at that point the only good thing (usually) is that the shooter didn't shoot himself in his junk.

When I go to the range to give my pistols a workout I am amazed at the number of new divots in the floor as well as the various holes in the tableand side/front shields in the shooting position. It isn't the holster, just the shooter failing in their "finger discipline.


BTW, one sure cure would be to require all holsters be located so the barrel points straight at the family jewels. ND's while drawing and reholstering would drop drastically. For those who still have the problem, at least we won't see their future generations having the same problem. :bigsmile:

With "Trigger safeties", like on the glock, it becomes of paramount importance to pay attention when holstering. If something gets caught in the trigger guard, that so called safety is not going to help avoid an ND.


Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:36 pm
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Why is anybody dropping their gun/holster in the dirt? Even shooting at the pits my equipment is not allowed to touch the ground. Again I've NEVER had an issue. Every couple of months I will rinse the dust bunnies out. I take care of my gear. The SWAT officer that tought my CPL class was sporting a Serpa. I went to the weekly Lawton OK shooter lunch, and about a dozen of Lawtons finest came in. I think every one of the were using a Serpa. I use the pad of my finger, and as it slides out it rests on the slide frame.

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Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:00 pm
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LAPD Bans Use Of Blackhawk Serpa Holster
http://soldiersystems.net/2017/06/23/lapd-bans-use-of-blackhawk-serpa-holster/

Three Reasons Not to Use the Blackhawk Serpa Holster
http://weaponsman.com/?p=16642

The SERPA Sucks, And That’s Just All There Is To Say About It
https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2017/04/06/serpa-sucks-thats-just-say/

KNOWN ISSUES WITH SERPA HOLSTERS
http://tagtrainingllc.bympa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Safety-Issues-Re-Serpa.pdf

Safety Issue-Prohibiting Use of Blackhawk SERPA Holsters
https://4dk8pfu3zzi8pwuy2zc05pe8-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Safety-Issue-Prohibiting-Use-of-Blackhawk-SERPA-Holsters.pdf

SERPA Holsters Banned from FLETC
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/01/foghorn/serpa-holsters-banned-from-fletc/

I could go on. That's just two pages of a google search.

Probably the best summary:

Nick Leghorn is Right About the Blackhawk SERPA Holster
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/11/robert-farago/nick-leghorn-is-right-about-the-blackhawk-serpa-holster/
Quote:
TTAG scribe and proto-hunter Nick Leghorn recently stirred-up a ballistic hornet’s nest—a metaphor I’d like to see in real life, from a distance—with his post SERPA Holsters Should be Discontinued. Nick argued that the popular holster is inherently unsafe. Note: he did not call for a ban. He said it should be discontinued. Personally, I’m down with that. I believe that all self-defense weaponry should be designed for the lowest common denominator. ‘Cause we’re ALL the lowest common denominator when the excrement hits the rotating air circulation device. To use the SERPA holster safely, you need a relatively high level of training AND enough opfam (Operational Familiarity) that you don’t Tex Grebner under pressure. Good luck with that. Meanwhile, there is a better alternative. As demonstrated here. All that said, you pays your money, you takes your chances.

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Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:26 pm
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I bet I could google every brand of holster, and find an anti-holster links. If your happy with your holster great. I'm happy for over ten years with mine.

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Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:32 pm
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Negative, not nearly as much as the serpa. It is head and shoulders above any other holster in contributing to NDs

There is a reason they have been banned by many agencies and training facilities

There was a reason the serpa was my first thought when I read the OP

Like I said before: If it works for you great

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Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:48 pm
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Holsters don't shoot people.

Stupid booger hook on the bang switch dick heads shoot people.

Including themselves - not often enough.

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Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:57 pm
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RocketScott wrote:

Like I said before: If it works for you great


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Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:05 pm
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golddigger14s wrote:
Why is anybody dropping their gun/holster in the dirt? Even shooting at the pits my equipment is not allowed to touch the ground. Again I've NEVER had an issue. Every couple of months I will rinse the dust bunnies out. I take care of my gear. The SWAT officer that tought my CPL class was sporting a Serpa. I went to the weekly Lawton OK shooter lunch, and about a dozen of Lawtons finest came in. I think every one of the were using a Serpa. I use the pad of my finger, and as it slides out it rests on the slide frame.


Arrest a suspect that doesn't want to be arrested and it often turns in to a wrestling match on the ground. Rolling around in the dirt. Not uncommon.
Get into one firefight in Afghanistan and take cover... go prone in the dirt... an when you get back to the FOB and go to clear your weapon you find it won't come out. At all. Until you cut the holster apart.


You will not find anywhere near as many problems with any other decent holster. There is not a 5 page thread of problems with any other holster on light fighter.


Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:03 am
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In the rifle course I did in the snow, mud and rain, I had an AR-15 that wouldn’t chamber after several hundred rounds because of all the mags I would drop on the ground and just reinsert later on not giving one fuck.

Maybe I should start a tirade thread against the manufacturer and all the -

Anti-piston jerk-circle fuck boys will jump in and make it 10+ pages!!!

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Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:18 am
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UpDog wrote:
In the rifle course I did in the snow, mud and rain, I had an AR-15 that wouldn’t chamber after several hundred rounds because of all the mags I would drop on the ground and just reinsert later on not giving one fuck.

Maybe I should start a tirade thread against the manufacturer and all the -

Anti-piston jerk-circle fuck boys will jump in and make it 10+ pages!!!


AK is best rifle

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Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:44 am
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RocketScott wrote:
LAPD Bans Use Of Blackhawk Serpa Holster
http://soldiersystems.net/2017/06/23/lapd-bans-use-of-blackhawk-serpa-holster/

Three Reasons Not to Use the Blackhawk Serpa Holster
http://weaponsman.com/?p=16642

The SERPA Sucks, And That’s Just All There Is To Say About It
https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2017/04/06/serpa-sucks-thats-just-say/

KNOWN ISSUES WITH SERPA HOLSTERS
http://tagtrainingllc.bympa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Safety-Issues-Re-Serpa.pdf

Safety Issue-Prohibiting Use of Blackhawk SERPA Holsters
https://4dk8pfu3zzi8pwuy2zc05pe8-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Safety-Issue-Prohibiting-Use-of-Blackhawk-SERPA-Holsters.pdf

SERPA Holsters Banned from FLETC
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/01/foghorn/serpa-holsters-banned-from-fletc/

I could go on. That's just two pages of a google search.

Probably the best summary:

Nick Leghorn is Right About the Blackhawk SERPA Holster
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/11/robert-farago/nick-leghorn-is-right-about-the-blackhawk-serpa-holster/
Quote:
TTAG scribe and proto-hunter Nick Leghorn recently stirred-up a ballistic hornet’s nest—a metaphor I’d like to see in real life, from a distance—with his post SERPA Holsters Should be Discontinued. Nick argued that the popular holster is inherently unsafe. Note: he did not call for a ban. He said it should be discontinued. Personally, I’m down with that. I believe that all self-defense weaponry should be designed for the lowest common denominator. ‘Cause we’re ALL the lowest common denominator when the excrement hits the rotating air circulation device. To use the SERPA holster safely, you need a relatively high level of training AND enough opfam (Operational Familiarity) that you don’t Tex Grebner under pressure. Good luck with that. Meanwhile, there is a better alternative. As demonstrated here. All that said, you pays your money, you takes your chances.


The neat thing about the Internet is that anyone can post an opinion or claim expertise without having to post their credentials. Everything is considered "gospel" because they say so.

I doubt I'll shitcan my SERPA anytime soon. This sounds like the old discussion of why one should never use an SOB holster. All kinds of stories on how it caused people to end up in wheelchairs when they fell on them, all of them true of course because the person putting them forth said so.

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Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:28 pm
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The neat thing about sand is that it's always there to stick your head into

If you don't see anything credible in what I posted I really don't know what to tell you

These aren't a few youtube videos, it's not just a couple freak incidents, it's a whole body of evidence that this holster is a bad idea

The LAPD, Larry Vickers, the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, Front Sight, Wilson Tactical, the USFS, and many others have strong opinions about this holster, as well as way more experience than me. When that many people say the exact same thing it lends a lot of credibility to the assessment. Good luck arguing against all those credentials.

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Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:22 pm
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